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ROYAL MAIL GROUP — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Taped Interview
Short Descriptive Notes
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Full Taped Interview Transcript (delete as
applicable)
Person interviewed: JOAN FRANCIS BAILEY (JB) Exhibit No:
Place of Interview: SHREWSBURY MAIL CENTRE Number of pages: 12
Signature of interviewer producing
Date of Interview: 9.3.11 Time commenced: 12.32
Tape reference no.: 070837 Time concluded: 13.12
Duration of 40 MINUTES
Interview:
Interviewing STEVEN BRADSHAW (SB) HELEN DICKINSON (HD)
Officers:
Other persons ANDREW TENCH (AT) — LEGAL REP
present:
Tape Person TEXT
counter speaking
times
Voice identification of everyone present and the nature of the
enquiry explained. Permission to tape record given.
1.30 JB cautioned and reminded of legal rights. JB told she is not under
arrest, (2) is free to leave, (3) is entitled to legal representation and
advice including the right to speak with a Solicitor and (4) is entitled
to read the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 Codes of
Practice setting out the rules and rights governing the conduct of
this interview. The necessary Form completed and signed —
Solicitor present
4.55 The Royal Mail Employee Rights to a Friend at an interview or
search form GS003 completed and signed. Offer of friend — friend
declined. JB said she is fit and well to be interviewed.
7.00 JB questioned about an audit that took place at Howey Post Office
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
on 5" January 2011 and when asked to explain the shortage states:-
Well on that particular day I was in bed with swine flu and Glyn
came upstairs and said “Joan there’s an auditor downstairs and
she’s found that there’s a problem in the Post Office can you get up
and come down to her” so I went downstairs and she explained to
me that she’d found a shortfall in cash, that she hadn’t counted the
stock at that moment but you know that there is a problem with the
cash shortfall. I told her that I'd been inflating the figures on the
cash declaration because I knew about the shortfall. My husband
didn’t know anything at all about it. I didn’t tell him about it because
we're having real problems with out family at that time with illness
and various other things and I didn’t go into detail with her but when
I had the interview with Mr. Burst?
Colin Burston.
Colin Burston, I did explain to him that we’d been having losses in
the Post Office since earlier on in the year of 2010 and that I’d been
putting money in to cover the losses but the losses were just getting
too much and you know got to a point when I'd drained our bank
accounts and what little savings we’d got and you know I couldn't
kind of cover it any more.
JB states she thought the amount was about £11,700 and she
confirmed her signature on a record made by Mrs. Balderson.
Can I just read this out so that it’s on tape?
Yes.
On Wednesday 5" January 2011 Mrs. Judy Balderson FSA
attending Howey Post Office to conduct an audit. I advised Mrs.
Balderson that the cash had been over declared by me for several
months to cover the balancing shortages. The cash was
approximately over-declared by 11,700 and then it’s signed Mrs.
Joan Bailey and dated 5", 5" January 2011?
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB Yes that’s right.
10.30 JB states the shortages began about May 2010. She clarified she
does monthly balances and her initial loss was about £1,300 for a
couple of months and by July was about £3,000.
12.45 SB Can you remember for August?
JB August what I did the money I borrowed from my daughter earlier in
the year I actually kind of balanced so that I got it straight for kind
of August time so and then ‘cos when I did the balance in the
middle of August again it was down even though the money was
correct then, it was down then, it was basically from August
onwards that it started just going haywire.
13.43 JB states she went onto Horizon Next line generation about July
when she balanced right.
14.20 JB’s legal representative points out that she has a serious short
term memory problem.
14.28 SB So in July you had Horizon next generation and all the cash was
correct?
JB Yes yes yes.
SB Right and then what you're saying is from August then your
problems started again?
JB That’s right yes.
SB And then between August and January 11, just over £12,000 you're
saying has gone missing?
JB Yes.
SB Ok have you taken that money?
JB No no I’ve never stolen anything in my life.
15.22 SB Who's responsible for producing the branch trading statement?
JB I usually do that.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
SB Ok.
JB Glyn always did the one for the satellites and then I always did this
one.
SB Ok and a cash declaration every day?
JB Yes I did.
SB So you counted the cash each day and declared it on the system?
JB Yes.
HD Did you count it each day did you physically count it?
JB Yes oh yes yes.
16.10 JB explained she had a money bag which she used for the losses
and gains. She went on to say that when doing monthly balancing,
she would run off a balance snapshot then check the cash and
stock against it.
16.544 SB Now what you're saying is that you were, certainly from August that
you were short?
JB Yes.
SB Ok so how did you produce a branch trading statement?
JB ‘Cos I inflated the figures.
17.21 SB So what do you mean by inflating the figures?
JB Well when it was a few thousand pounds I kind of put you know
£2,000 on the 20’s or £1,000 on the 10’s and as it got worse and
worse I just had to add thousand pounds to it each time.
HD You shared it out between?
JB Yes yes.
HD Not all into one denomination?
HD That's right yes.
SB And did you do that every time since August?
JB Yes.
17.52 SB Did you know it was wrong to do that?
JB Yes I know.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
And you've falsified the accounts
Yes I know.
JB said she did not contact anybody about the problems as she did
not want to tell Glyn and did not mention anything when she
transferred onto Horizon on line.
What happened between May and the Horizon next generation
team coming in, how did you, what did you do with the balancing
then for May, June and July?
I just put the money in and then when my daughter gave me the
money I was able to kind of pay myself back a little bit.
So you didn’t put any money in in May or June?
Yes I’ve just said I put the money in each month I took it.
Yeah but that’s what I said so if you were £1300 short in May you
put the money in to make it good.
Oh sorry yeah sorry sorry I didn’t understand what you meant.
And you done the same for June?
Yes yes.
SB confirmed that in July she was forewarned the next generation
team would be coming to check the cash which is when she
borrowed £9,000 from her daughter.
What was the £9,000 for?
Roughly £6,000 was to put back into the Post Office ‘cos apart from
when the large amounts were going, it was previous to that I'd been
putting £180 a month or you know £200 a month and I think those
actually came up on the trading statements, they actually came up
you know your deficit of £180 something or whatever.
So you declared that shortage and then it asked you?
Yeah and then I put the money in then.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB confirmed the system asked if you wanted to make it good cash
or cheque and she did so every month. She continued:-
I got to the point whereas we wouldn't bank on a Wednesday until
I'd done this because if I’d got to put cash in it was easier for me to
do it than write cheques out.
Ok it’s just that if you’d already put the money in at the end of June,
how did you become £6,000 short to put back into the Post Office
between June and July when the Horizon next generation team
come ‘cos you've said that you put the money in to make the cash
correct?
Yes I put some of it in, I didn’t put the £1,000 in.
Right so in May, to use your figure of £1300 you didn’t put the full
£1300 in?
No no I put what I could I could take, I took out what I could out of
our bank accounts but we only, we only kind of you know we work
on such a short kind of amount because obviously of the stock that
we carry and that kind of thing I couldn’t afford to put it all in so I'd
do it perhaps over a couple of weeks.
Fine so again.
So my daughter leant me the money so that I could actually pay
back and make sure that was all clear and then put a couple of
thousand pounds back into our bank account.
So did you roll that shortage, did you say you’d made it good but
you didn’t and then rolled it onto the next month?
That's right yes yes.
So again just to clear it up, if we use May as when you're saying it
started, you’re £1300 short, you would put £300 in and roll £1,000
into the next one?
Yes.
And then in June you would make the £300 good again and roll that
£1,000 from May, the £1,000 short of June and that £2,000 would
then roll into July?
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB Yes.
SB But then in July it’s suddenly gone up to £6,000 ‘cos you said you
put £6,000 back in and that’s another £4,000.
JB Yeah but I’m only going on what roughly the figures were, I can’t
remember exactly.
26.06 AT Bearing in mind your medical problems which we'll come to in due
course, I don’t want you to guess at things.
JB Yes.
AT If you’re not sure or you just don’t know, tell this lady and
gentleman that you don’t know, I don’t want you to guess.
JB Ok.
AT They will understand in due course why you’re having problems
answering these questions.
27.00 JB said she could not account for the sudden deficit.
27.44 A giro deposit transaction was discussed and transaction
corrections.
30.26 SB If you got a shortage of £200 and you put the money in, do you
show the £200 on the branch trading statement and then put the
money in or do you re-adjust your cash after you’ve put the money
in to show a straight balance?
JB I readjust the cash, oh no when it says make good cash or cheque
then.
SB No I’m talking about, not when you’re doing your balance.
JB Oh sorry sorry yeah.
SB And your balance is showing that you've got a shortage, say the
shortage is £100, £200 ok so ‘cos under the terms of the contract
for your husband who’s the Sub-Postmaster he has to make good
any shortages at the time of the balance.
JB Yes yeah yeah.
SB If it's a surplus he’s allowed to take it out, shortage he has to make
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
good.
Yes.
Right so £200, £200, what would normally happen, would you show
£200 on your branch trading statement and just put the money in or
would you re-declare the cash and increase that by, you know put
the £200 in, re-declare your cash so your cash goes up by £200 so
when you do your branch trading statement it shows Nil
discrepancies?
Do you understand the question?
Yeah I think I know what he means. No no because on, no when it
says you know there’s a discrepancy of, do you want to make good
cash or cheque, I’d put make good, I'd press the ‘make good cash’
and put the cash in but I wouldn't do another declaration.
No no people have different ways some will show whatever the
balance result is on the branch trading statement, people will show
that, some Sub-Postmasters don’t like showing that and what they
do is put the money in, re-declare the cash so the branch trading
statement shows out as if everything is perfect.
Oh I see I didn’t know you could do that so yeah.
JB said she had quite a few transaction corrections last year but
could not recall any for large amounts.
JB went on to say that she believes there may be problems with the
Horizon system and said:-
I know that after July when I did an end of month or something and
it said ‘what do you want to do make good cash or make good
cheque? And my husband had actually banked early that day so I
hadn’t actually got any cash apart from my float in our shop so I
thought oh well I’ll make good cash so I actually wrote a cheque out
for £59.95. Now normally if you press ‘make good cheque’ it
actually comes up automatically on the system so when you do
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
your cheque print out it’s there right and it wasn’t there and so I
thought oh that’s funny it’s not there and I thought well never mind
I'll send the cheque off anyway, I won’t rem it out because
obviously if I was short I won’t rem it out and I sent the cheque off
anyway with the little pink slip you know for the cheques and a few
weeks later I had a transaction correction saying you haven't made
good this amount for £59 or whatever it was, I think it was 59 and
so I rung them up and I said “well I have because I made good the
cheque” and I said “but it didn’t show up on the system so I just
sent the cheque anyway” and she said “yes that’s a glitch with the
new system they’re having problems with accepting cheques when
you've made good, could you send another cheque and we'll doa
transaction correction when this other cheque goes through” I said
“right ok” so I did another cheque I sent it, she says “we'll send you
the transaction correction” which they did and that was actually
there make, you know cheque so I sent another cheque off but they
never sent a transaction correction for the cheque that they'd
received previously that I'd sent so I know that that was a glitch,
that was only a small amount but it still showed there was a
problem with, and up until we had our audit in January that was still
the case, that was still the case it wouldn’t.
38.52 SB Well I can assure you that whatever glitch if there is any at the
beginning with Horizon next generation has been solved right.
AT You will forgive me saying that we don’t accept that.
39.50 JB said she has worked in the Post Office 5 % years and believes
she is competent enough.
Master tape seal signed on number 070837
Interview terminated at 13.12
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