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Royal Mail Group
ROYAL MAIL GROUP - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Taped Interview
Short Descriptive Notes
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Full Taped Interview Transcript
(delete as
applicable)
Person interviewed:
Place of Interview:
JOAN BAILEY (JB) Exhibit No:
SHREWSBURY MAIL CENTRE Number of pages: 9
Signature of interviewer producing
Date of Interview: Time commenced: 13.14
Tape reference no.: 070838 Time concluded: 13.57
Duration of 43 MINUTES
Interview:
Interviewing STEVEN BRADSHAW (SB) HELEN DICKINSON (HD)
Officers:
Other persons ANDREW TENCH (AT) - LEGAL REP
present:
Tape Person TEXT
counter speaking
times
Voice identification of everyone present.
0.50 JB re-cautioned and reminded of legal rights. JB is happy for
Andrew to stay and still does not require a friend.
2.30
Gso1s
GRO
I She said she did
noi
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11.00
She said the last time she was off was in 2009 prior to which it was
2006 and 2007 when a lady covered for them.
16.40 JB said she still managed to work when she had: GRO :asit
was around holiday time.
18.40 JB said she believes her problems were a combination of tiredness.
21.18 HD So just one last thing for me, I mean you did say earlier that you'd
never asked us for any help you know like by saying I’m concerned
about the losses or shortages I’m having, is there a reason why you
didn’t report it or ring the help desk?
JB Because if I rung the help desk I’d have to tell Glyn and I didn’t
want to do it because of everything that we’re going through. Only
a few, 2 years before, I don’t know whether you've got this on the
records but I actually lost a rem, we had a rem in of £11,000 and I'd
put the, I was on my own that day so I’d got the shop and the Post
Office, Glyn was at the Satellite so it was a Tuesday ‘cos he does
the satellites on a Tuesday and I’ve put the rem under the counter
‘cos I hadn’t got time to go to the safe so I’d pushed it under the
counter on top of the desk printer, you know the large printer?
HD Yeah.
JB And I'd put it on top of there and at the front of there I'd got my
basket which I put scrap paper in and various other things and
somehow the rem got into the recycle that’s what it was the paper
thing which I use for recycling it got into there. I’d added it onto my
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
cash holdings so never thought anything about it I’d got plenty of
money in the drawer because the bank, the pub across the road
had paid in about 15, £1800 so there was plenty of cash in my
drawer. It wasn’t until later in the week and I thought Oh I'd better
top my cash up now it’s getting a bit low I’ve got pensions coming
out and, not pensions I’ve got payments that come out on the
Friday and I went to the safe, opened the safe went into my cash
drawer which is in the safe and I thought Oh where’s my cash and
then I realised what I’d done then and so we contacted the Post
Office straight away. Well first of all I contacted the recycling place
because you know, you know and I said “has anybody handed
anything in” and I described the pouch, the green pouch to them
and everything and they said no and so I gave them my telephone
number, explained what had happened and then we contacted the
Post Office and we explained everything to the Post Office and then
they took out the, well we paid £3,000 straight away because we’d
got that much in the bank account and then the rest they took out
from Glyn’s remuneration and then that was paid up I think
November of last year that was completely paid back, November of
last year.
HD So you didn’t.
24.19 JB I didn’t want to tell him because of all of that I just, I thought I can’t
you know because he was really {GRO__I and I just didn’t want
to tell him. I just didn’t want to tell him.
24.40 The interview was recapped.
26.26 SB Any of that money did you give back to your daughter did you take
any money back out of the Post Office?
JB No I pay her because part of it was her, because she'd done as a,
person who’s older who goes to University what's it called?
SB Mature student.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB Mature student yes and so this was part of a grant money that she’d
and she hadn't used all of the grant money and so she said “well I'll
lend you Mum if you pay the interest” so I paid the interest each
month until, because we had, we did actually put the Post Office up
for sale last year because it was just getting too much for both of us
really.
SB Right so you didn’t take any Post Office money back out to give
back to your daughter?
27.42 JB Oh no no gosh no.
SB Right you complete your branch trading statements every 4 or 5
weeks when it’s due.
JB Yes.
SB And then from this time from May to July and then again from, well
even when you made it good and you said it started again after the
Horizon next generation so it’s either balanced, you inflated your
cash.
JB Yes.
SB Your cash on hand to show a different amount that was really there
and put the difference in the amounts across all denominations of
the cash?
JB Yes.
28.30 JB said the transaction corrections mostly related to cheques which
had either bounced or hadn't been received.
34.26 JB maintained she believes the system was at fault.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
35.36 SB What I’m saying is with the system is that every keystroke is
recorded.
JB Yes.
SB Right so if you fail or the person operating the system fails to
conduct a transaction and gets £600 out that can’t be a system
fault.
JB No.
SB I accept that it’s a system fault if you conduct the transaction
correctly and you pay out £600 you press the buttons and you
genuinely press 600 and it pays out £6000.
JB Yes.
SB I accept then that it could, there’s a possibility that’s it a technical
fault within the system right.
JB Yes.
36.25 SB When you ended up £1,000 short or £2,000 short?
JB I did a transaction log.
SB You've done a transaction log?
JB Yeah.
SB And there is nothing shown that?
JB I couldn’t see anything I mean even, on the one occasion I thought
well on that particular day that the pub across the road paid I think
it was £1200 in or something like that and I thought and I kind of
looked at it to see if I’d put a larger amount, if I'd put a larger
amount in that they paid you know they paid in and that kind of
thing and I did a log and I couldn't see it.
SB So each time you were short in the balance you produced a
transaction log and you checked the transaction log to see if there
were any transactions that stood out above the norm?
JB Yes.
SB And the £1200 being £12000?
JB Well not every time but I mean because I didn’t think about that at
first until I had a problem about, I’d gone over into ATM to do a, and
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
then, and I’d forgot to go back into AA stock and so all the
transactions I’ve been doing I’ve been doing in the ATM and so I
rung the helpline to help me you know what I’ve got to do and they
told me to cut everything off as I would normally do and then to go
back into AA and then do like a transfer over to balance the cash
and to produce a transaction log and that’s the first time, this was
probably last year in the middle of the year when I realised I could
do this transaction log quite easily for the time the date the amount
to actually show me what I was doing wrong.
38.14 SB So by the middle of the year you know how to do transaction logs?
JB Yes yes yeah.
SB And the middle of the year in July you made the money straight?
JB Yes yes.
SB Right so from July you still know how to do a transaction log and the
£12,000 short over a period of months.
JB And I couldn't find it.
SB So when you've done your transaction log you've looked through
your transaction log to see whether there’s any figures that would
stand out as being fictitious, too much put in by yourself, not enough
put in by yourself and there is no figures that you could see to
explain why you were approximately £2,000 short for each month?
JB No I couldn't see anything.
SB Even though you checked so again it’s only to try and quantify this bit
about the system, so the systems come out so if you have said £600
or £1200 the system has recorded what you’ve said?
JB Yes.
SB There is nothing being recorded by you that shows like, which again
could be a mis-key stroke by yourself to use the example of the bank
paying in 1200 being 12000?
JB Yes.
SB And reading to you looked straight and it looked as if there was no
fictitious?
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB I couldn't see anything no.
SB Ok so but we still go no explanation?
JB No.
39.28 HD But to be fair if you would have, somebody would have asked for a
balance and then said oh I'll take the 600 and you didn’t make the
entry then, it wouldn’t be on the transaction logs it wouldn’t shot.
JB No.
SB But on that that’s not a fault with the system is it, that’s down to the
operator of the system?
JB Yeah yeah.
SB And again I take what you say like in mitigation short term memory
loss and that you may have thought you’d done it and you may not
have done it but that’s the carelessness or incompetence of the
operator handing out money without having the transaction to
balance so therefore and under the terms of your husband’s contract
is that he’s liable for all losses irrespect of how they occur.
JB Yes.
Master tape seal signed on number 070838
Interview terminated at 13.57
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