POL00056389
POL00056389
Royal Mail Group
ROYAL MAIL GROUP - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Taped Interview
Short Descriptive Notes
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Full Taped Interview Transcript (delete as
applicable)
Person interviewed: JOAN BAILEY (JB) Exhibit No:
Place of Interview: SHREWSBURY MAIL CENTRE Number of pages: 8
Signature of interviewer producing
Date of Interview: Time commenced: 1400
Tape reference no.: 070839 Time concluded: 14.23
Duration of 23 MINUTES.
Interview:
Interviewing STEVEN BRADSHAW (SB) HELEN DICKINSON (HD)
Officers:
Other persons ANDREW TENCH (AT)- LEGAL REP.
present:
Tape Person TEXT
counter speaking
times
Voice identification of everyone present
0.40 JB re-cautioned and reminded of legal rights. She said she is
happy for AT to remain and to continue without a Post Office friend.
The previous interviews were briefly summarised.
2.27 SB Now what we’re just going through is that when the auditors were
there, there was a number of things (indistinct) just come through.
I'll just show you one first that’s SB6 that’s a cash declaration. Now
you would normally, I think you've already said to us that you’re the
one that performed all cash declarations?
JB Yes.
SB And what would the, when an auditor normally comes in, what they
do is on the system is they would re-print the last declaration by
yourself.
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JB Right.
SB By yourself I’m saying you ‘cos you've worked there. Did anybody
else work in the Post Office apart from you and your husband?
JB No.
3.07 SB Now that cash declaration I know it’s dated the 5" ‘cos that’s the
time it’s printed, you will have done one on the 4" ‘cos you said
you've done one every day.
JB Yeah the 4" was the Tuesday I think wasn’t it?
SB Yeah.
JB Yes yes yes.
SB Now if that’s showing something like 23,000 plus as cash in the
Post Office?
JB Yes.
SB Is that a true amount that was in there so if me and Helen come in
there and we counted your money, would we have found over
£23,000 in cash?
JB No.
SB Ok so how did you arrive at that cash declaration?
JB Because I inflated the figures of the larger denomination notes.
SB Yeah and that’s what you did on a daily basis?
JB Yes.
3.55 JB confirmed she kept a note on pieces of paper which she no
longer has.
4.36 SB The other thing an auditor would do is he comes in and this is SB7
and that’s a balance snapshot. Again that’s asking the system
basically what money should be in and again you'll see the figure is
just over the 23,000, I don’t know whether it’s exactly the same I
think it’s just slightly different between what you’d declared and.
JB Yeah I think yeah it’s difference of a few pounds.
SB Yeah and again it doesn’t show any sort of discrepancy.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB Discrepancy no.
SB Right again so that’s a fictitious figure?
JB Yes.
SB Yeah. Now the final balance snapshot I’m going to show you this is
SB8 and again shows basically the amount, the cash has dropped
to 12,608.04p. Now that’s the true amount that was in there?
JB Yes.
SB ‘Cos that’s the audit, do you agree that that’s the true amount?
JB Yes yes. Yes Judy showed it to me.
SB Yeah and the difference between them is that 11 £12,000 when you
know your cash and stock and everything is?
JB Yeah.
SB Brought into account ok.
7.38 JB was shown TP 6, 7, & 8.
7.55 SB And on that first one you're showing that the discrepancy, you’re
showing a surplus of £15.
JB Yes.
SB Right but and the cash figure is, the cash on hand is £28,997.66
right.
8.17 JB Yeah yeah
SB So that cash on hand is that a true figure?
JB No because this was, what date is this?
SB That's October.
JB September to October.
SB Yeah.
JB No.
8.49 SB Ok so that cash on hand figure is incorrect it’s been inflated?
JB Yes.
SB To achieve a balance?
JB Yes.
SB And you knew it was wrong to do that?
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
JB Yes.
SB And the £15.06p over how do we arrive at that? ‘Cos earlier you
said that you put all the money in or you made it to look straight?
10.02 JB I don’t know.
SB Ok on TP7 it’s again the same. You've got cash on hand of just
over 20,000 20.003.26 that’s, sorry for TP7 which is SP, sorry ...
SP4. Right is that amount a true amount or has that amount been
inflated?
JB It's been inflated. I told you I inflated them from August onwards.
10.58 SB The figure still includes all the shortages of the previous months?
JB Yes
SB To achieve the balance?
JB That's it yes.
SB And on this one you're showing a shortage of £45.36.
JB Yes.
SB And again you’re not sure how you got to show the £45.00?
AT You're looking at these I’m sure your knowledge of account is better
than mine but are you properly reading and understanding what
you're looking at?
JB Yeah but I’m not quite sure what he’s asking me you know.
11.33 SB Ok if we use TP7 as the example you’ve got your cash on hand
there at just over 20,000.
JB Right yeah yeah yeah.
SB Right that figure has been inflated and it includes all the shortages
of the previous months.
JB Yes.
SB Right so if you were £1,000 short in July and you didn’t put that
money in, in August it’s whatever you’re going to be short again
plus the previous £1,000.
JB Yes.
SB So that’s, if we use £1,000 for each month so August includes
£1,000 of July and £1,000 of August. Then we go to September
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
that includes September's shortage and the shortage from August
and July and so on.
JB Yes.
SB So then down to this one where you've balanced on the 17"
November, that includes the shortage from TP6, TP5, TP4 and so
on.
JB Yeah yeah yeah. I think that the £45, because I’d got a running
total of what the deficit was, l’d made the cash right as I thought but
there was obviously something that you know it could have been, it
could have been a Euro that wasn’t there or anything you know a
couple of Euros.
12.51 HD Or is it that you’re just putting a random amount in like £100 or £50
amount and it’s just creating a little bit of a surplus or shortage?
JB Yeah it could be that yes it could be that.
SB Now your shortage may well be £6,000 or £45 and you’ve put
£6,000 in and you've left the £45 swing and then the next month
there might be £7022 have you left the £22 swing and just made it
7,000.
JB Yeah but I wouldn't do that intentionally. God it was bad enough
that I did the other I certainly would make it more confusing for
myself.
SB And then the final one I’ve got which is your last balance right that’s
SB5 which is the TP8 right again on this your cash on hand is,
you've probably got a better, £18,497.89p and on this occasion
you're showing a £44.67 surplus. It may well be a corresponding
error as we say to counteract the previous shortage.
JB Previous could be yeah.
SB Of the previous month.
JB It could have been a cheque or something that hasn’t been remmed
out or something.
SB But again that cash figure is incorrect.
JB Yes.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
SB And have you inflated the figures again to achieve the balance?
JB Yes.
SB And you knew it was wrong to do that?
JB Yes.
14.18 SB So in effect on that 18,000 if it was 12,000 short there was only
£6,000 worth of cash in the branch wouldn't it?
JB No there would have been more in there wouldn't there. Where
was this December 15" of the 12" that would have been
December?
SB Well we’re £12,000 short so you’re showing 18 and you're 12 short
so I would say you’ve got 6 or £7,000 only in the branch
JB Yeah but that was only on the 15". I’m sure, it might have been
because the pub sometimes paid in on a Thursday, Thursday or
Friday. We didn’t pay a tremendous out between Friday and, this
was on a Wednesday, yes the amount I paid out on a Thursday will
be quite small and often towards the end of the week people came
in to pay you know various things so you'd perhaps have you know
money giro money in and as you were paying other money out so
you perhaps be paying you know £200 out or £300 out to
somebody but they'd come and pay a telephone bill in of £120
cash. A lot of people paid in cash you know we had quite a few
cheques.
HD I mean Steve’s only talking in rough figures anyway. I mean
basically what he’s saying is if there’s £12,000 missing and you've
got 18 on your branch trading then chances are in your safe there’s
only 6 it’s only a rough.
JB Yes yeah yeah.
15.55 SB Just to finish on that do you ever remember any months when the
money was that low?
JB No. No I’m sure, well I can’t think of any when it was that low
because as I say the people used to pay in and you know I can’t
remember any particular month when it w s that low at all.
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Record of Taped Interview — Continued
16.25 The interviews were summarised when JB agreed she benefited by
being able to carry on running the Post Office.
21.44 JB said she has no idea when the money can be repaid and said her
husband will have to decide this.
22.34 SB Right I have to inform you that you may be prosecuted, you do not
have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not
mention now something which you later rely on in Court, anything
you do say may be given in evidence. Do you wish to clarify
anything?
AT No.
Master tape seal signed on number 070839
Interview terminated at 14.23
Explanatory notice regarding the tapes given to JB
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