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Regular Call re Horizon Issues
Meeting 19/07/13
Attendees:
Team/Function
Legal
Financial Services Centre
Security
Communications
Network
Information Technology & Change
Network Business Support Centre (NBSC)
Attendees
Ben Thorp
Andrew Parsons
Martin Smith
(FSC) Rod Ismay
Dave Posnett
Rob King
Sophie Bialaszewski
Ruth X Barker
Nick Beal
Gayle A Peacock
Steve Beddoe
Jeff Burke
Kendra Dickinson
Security
Outlined the purpose of the meeting; to
identify any issues around the integrity
of horizon from a technical prospective
and take any necessary action.
A process needs to be set up within each
directorate where each representative
proactively seeks out any technically
with horizon.
No minutes circulated, but we will be
taking notes. In scope were issues and
problems the group were made aware of.
Outlined issues from a security
prospective, interview techniques amended
to allow for horizon error defence,
statement produced to inform subject “not
here to discuss second sight review
Expanded - Security are changing attitude
and ways of interviewing under caution;
faults and training are incorporated into
interviews now, countering suggestions
that Horizon is to blame for losses,
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statement drafted along the lines of ‘we
are not here to talk about 24 Sight
Review, we are here to talk about ..’.
Martin Smith I Legal Confirmed it was good that Horizon wasn’t
discussed at length during interviews
under caution and also the use of
template statement. Would like to be
appraised of developments re interviewing
and to have sight of statement and
scripts.
Clarification on disclosure and email
correspondence. Emphasised need to ensure
that any document produced would be
potentially disclosable.
Dave Posnett I Security Reporting of issues by current or former
SPMRs would be through publicised
channels (Focusonline issue 164 and
Intranet .. for curr
branch. support. tear,
former SPMRs:
contract.admin.team
Andrew Legal Commented on need to limit public debate
Parsons on the Horizon issue as this may have a
detrimental impact on future litigation.
Ben Thorp Legal Indicated that Legal also deal with civil
cases and they are conscious of cases
that go into the public domain. Legal
have a watching brief at the moment,
monitoring whether any issues are
referred to public courts before the 2™4
Sight final report later this year.
Rod Ismay FSC Brought this topic to the Operating
Board, regarding consequences and impact
on FSC, Security, etc. One area of
concern was briefing/guidance/training on
hazardous goods, mail instructions, DVLA,
etc .. how do we get guidance down to say
7 pages to make life easier - not joined
up . Several pieces of work on going that
needed some form of overview, ensuring
correct message going out with a
coordinated approach.
The number of training reviews/reviewees
was also highlighted (elongated) and the
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need for non/less professional personnel
to get involved and sign off training
aspects, material, guides, etc.
Internet chat rooms ~ noted that chat
rooms and forums have sprung up. Origin
of one was Yahoo mail. Local
groups/others have instigated chat rooms
re giving advice (perhaps in good faith)
+ Question - what can we do about this?
Currently no evidence of forums being
used to give malicious advice to defend
accusations of impropriety
Debt conversations are materialising (not
widespread at the moment) - discussions
with SPMRs alluding to Horizon, but
considered a fact of life given the
publicity.
Nick Beal Network Confirmed that SPMR’s who coach others
(e.g. experienced/good SPMRs) isn’t
signed off by POL. POL has no oversight
and no resource to oversight. Possibly
an opportunity moving forward as an idea
which could assist in supporting SPMRs.
Sophie Communications I Asked if there was a ‘Handling Plan’ or
Bialaszewski master list of cases from which to deal
with i.e. a definitive list of all
Horizon referrals (2™ Sight, referrals to
Branch Support, Contract Admin, etc.
Consensus was that there is no definitive
list and that there are numerous working
groups and channels for capturing Horizon
issues.
Ruth Barker I Communications I Mentioned piece in The Telegraph, where
MPs were vocal about Horizon and
constituents, but that these didn’t form
part of the 47 cases referred to 2%
Sight.
Concerned that there was no definitive
list of all cases that MPs currently have
or may in the future enquire about.
Dave Posnett I Security Confirmed that security did not have a
master list of all issues, unclear if
anyone can respond to potential query ..
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appears there is currently no central
point of contact for queries.
Rob King Security Pointed out that is was likely that
offenders previously dealt with for non-
Horizon issues, such as ATM
investigations may now allege a
miscarriage of justice.
Andrew Legal Stated all lists and spreadsheets should
Parsons be sent to Rosie Gaisford for collation.
Spoke about emails, written comms, etc ..
if it’s produced it’s then available for
disclosure, if it’s not then technically
it isn’t.
Gayle Network Volunteered to arrange/consider collation
Peacock of all issues into definitive list.
Gayle or Network?? - Concerned about
straight forward communication issues
brought forward by CWU/NFSP were being
presented as Horizon technical issues
Nick Beal Network Referred to the need to communicate to
the business how we are dealing with the
Horizon issues/problems .. to advise
people out there. This should be a
feeder into Angela’s work - central data,
opportunity, reputation.
NFSP robust in defence of Horizon
(disappointed in the interim report).
Need to keep their support (tensions,
participation in working groups, etc).
Response to non-Horizon cases; action has
been taken re discussions on suspensions
. Contract managers are considering
carefully whether to suspend (amount and
whether repaid will come into equation).
Steve Beddoe I Info Sec Fujitsu are looking at SLA’s, responses,
etc .. no problems thus far. Info Sec to
continue to support and factor in the
right people to test.
Number of activities underway to correct
issues quickly and enhanced performance
(smaller things) discussed/agreed with
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NFSP .. not new but reviewing workloads in
Info Sec a top priority.
Kendra NBSC Work is feeding into Gayle’s area, have
Dickinson had some SPMRs make contact (following
Focus and intranet instructions as to
where to direct issues from current and
former SPMRs). No big hits, looking at
supporting branches, Help, Guidance ..
feeding into whole thing.
Dave Posnett I Security Agreed with attendees
Action Points
Rob to forward statement template and interim measure document
to Martin Smith.
Gayle/Nick to liaise with Dave/Rob offline where appropriate.
Generate a list of past and current cases [query who is
responsible to produce this?]
Legal and network to hold meeting offline to determine where
requests should be channelled and define processes for
communicating out to interested parties. NB Martin Smith; CK
would need to be made aware of all requests for information
{technical faults] regardless of whether it was horizon that
may impact on a current or previous case [Not sure who took
this action up Gayle??]
Dave to send out meeting invites (conference call on
Wednesdays 10.00am to end of September)
The following to be invited to attend future conference calls,
with each team/function responsible for ensuring a
representative is present.
Team/Function Attendees
Legal Rodric Williams
Jarnail Singh
Andrew Parsons
Martin Smith
Financial Services Centre (FSC) Rod Ismay
Andrew Winn
Security Dave Posnett
Rob King
Communications
Network
Information Technology & Change
Network Business Support Centre
(NBSC)
Sophie Bialaszewski
Ruth X Barker
Nick Beal
Gayle A Peacock
Steve Beddoe
Jeff Burke
Kendra Dickinson
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