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Witness Name: Joanne Scott-lson
Statement No.: WITN06380100
Dated: 19 January 2023
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
First Witness Statement of Joanne Scott-Ison in the Post Office Horizon IT
Inquiry
I, JOANNE SCOTT-ISON, WILL SAY AS FOLLOWS:
1. My name is Joanne Scott-lson. I have been employed by Post Office Limited
("POL") (or its predecessors) since March 2007. During my time at POL I have
also had the surnames Griffiths and Fish.
2) Except where I indicate to the contrary, the facts and matters contained in this
witness statement are within my own knowledge. Where any information is not
within my personal knowledge, I have identified the source of my information or
the basis for my belief. The facts in this witness statement are true to the best
of my knowledge and belief. The Inquiry's request relates to my experiences as
a trainer throughout my career at POL, which spans almost a decade. Many of
the events the Inquiry has asked about took place many years ago. I have tried
to recall my experiences to the best of my ability but in some cases I have been
unable to remember the events being asked about in detail.
3, In this statement I use the term "Postmaster" broadly to refer to those people
or entities that are responsible for operating Post Office branches (but excluding
those individuals employed by POL), rather than with any formal definition in
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mind. Nothing in this statement is intended to detract or differ from any definition
adopted by POL.
4. This witness statement has been prepared in response to the request made by
the Horizon IT Inquiry (the "Inquiry") pursuant to Rule 9 of the Inquiry Rules
2006, dated 25 November 2022 (the "Rule 9 Request"). This statement has
been prepared (with the assistance of my solicitors, Herbert Smith Freehills
LLP) over telephone and email. In this witness statement, I address each of the
questions set out in the Rule 9 Request regarding my career background at
POL and my experience of providing training to users of the Horizon IT System
("Horizon").
5. Where I refer to specific documents in this statement, copies of those
documents are exhibited to this statement (as set out in the index below) and
identified by the Inquiry's unique reference number for that document.
DEFINED TERMS
6. In this statement, I have used a number of acronyms and defined terms. I have
set out a definition of each, as I have introduced them. However, for
convenience, I also set out the definitions of these acronyms and definitions
below:
BCF Branch Contact File
BIT Branch Insight Tool
BSC Branch Support Centre
cTo Counter Training Office
EPOS Electronic Point of Sale
Horizon The Horizon IT System
Inquiry The Horizon IT Inquiry
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POL Post Office Limited
Rule 9 Request =‘ The Inquiry's request pursuant to Rule 9 of the Inquiry
Rules 2006, dated 25 November 2022
PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND
Qualifications
ile I have been asked to set out by professional background and qualifications. I
left college in 2003 having completed my A-Levels.
8. When I was a Quality Assurance & Training Lead at POL I did a People
Management Fundamentals course as my role at the time involved managing
delegates (i.e. Postmasters and their assistants) in a classroom training setting.
This is a recognised qualification awarded by the Chartered Management
Institute.
Work history and roles
9. After leaving college, between 2003 and 2007, I held several different customer
service jobs, including in a music shop and a convenience store. I also worked
in a betting shop and as a receptionist at a motor garage run by my father.
Whilst working at the betting shop, I did a six week secondment travelling
around the UK, training employees in the use of the new Electronic Point of
Sale (EPOS) system.
10. I started working at POL in March 2007, when I became a Customer Service
Consultant in the Truro Crown Office branch. I first worked at the philatelic desk
selling stamps to stamp collectors, as well as lottery tickets. I served customers
and assisted with a range of other transactions, such as post and parcels,
business banking and car tax.
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nae
12.
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I transferred to the Newbury Crown Office branch in 2009 and continued to work
as a Customer Service Consultant. I was there for one year before moving to
the Cambridge Crown Office, in the same role. I then moved back to Newbury
in 2012, still in the same role.
In February 2013, I applied to be a Field Support Advisor in the training and
audit team. Practically speaking, I was in this role from 2013 to 2019, albeit the
job title changed from Field Support Advisor to Network Operations Advisor in
2015, then again to Training and Audit Advisor in 2018. The responsibilities in
the job were broadly the same under each of these three titles.
During this period (i.e. 2013 to 2019), the training and audit team, of which I
was part, was responsible for every element of support provided to
Postmasters. When I joined in 2013, management had relatively recently
merged the previously separate training and audit functions together and hired
around 160 — 180 new people to assist with the Network Transformation Project
(whereby branches became either "main" or "local" and Postmaster
remuneration became transaction-based, such that Postmasters were
remunerated on a transaction-by-transaction basis, rather than receiving a fixed
salary). My job consisted of four parts. The first was training delivered in the
classroom (although in practice during this period I was rarely responsible for
providing it). The second part was early days on-site support. I cannot
remember exactly for how long support was provided to new Postmasters
during this period but based on my recollection I would estimate it to be
approximately one week. The third part was intervention training. This meant
that, if it was identified that a branch was having a problem or a new product
was being introduced in a branch, we would visit them and deliver a set amount
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of training. For example, if a branch was having a new lottery machine installed,
we would train them in how to account for lottery on Horizon. A common type
of intervention visit was when a branch changed from a "local" to a "local plus"
branch, which meant Postmasters needed additional training on end of day
procedures for new categories of products. Another example would be where
a discrepancy had been identified (most likely by the contract management
team or the BSC) and we would visit the branch and pull off transaction logs to
try to identify the cause. If the branch had CCTV, I would try to match the
Postmaster's / assistants' interactions with customers on the CCTV with the
transactions in the log. For example, on one occasion I remember I was able to
identify that a withdrawal had been recorded on Horizon as a deposit, which
resulted in an apparent loss when doing end of day cash declarations. At the
end of an intervention visit I would fill in the designated intervention form
recording the outcome of the visit. I cannot recall how often I carried out these
visits. The fourth, and final, part of the job was audit.
I would note that as a Field Support Advisor, I spoke to the Branch Support
Centre (BSC) regularly. I was required to call the BSC in my capacity as an
auditor to leave an answerphone message informing them that a branch would
be closed for a certain amount of time while the audit was conducted.
Occasionally, I would contact the BSC on behalf of the Postmaster for other
reasons, for example I recall one occasion where the branch needed to place
an emergency order for stock, so I helped them to do that by calling the BSC.
However, I would not say that I did this very often, as the BSC is principally
designed to be used by Postmasters.
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15.
16.
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In January 2019, I understand that management decided that training and audit
should be separated back out into distinct roles. I am not certain who
specifically was responsible for making this decision. I have looked back at my
calendar and can see that an in-person meeting took place on 24 January 2019,
which was attended, amongst others, by the wider training and audit team as
well as my line manager Stuart Scarle, and other more senior individuals
including Lesley McNally and Judith Aubrey. As I recall, I think the meeting was
led by Pam Heap. I think I was probably informed of the decision to separate
the roles at this meeting.
My understanding is that the separation was prompted by developments in the
Group Litigation, albeit I am not sure which developments exactly. Management
also decided that the role of classroom trainer should be separate to the audit
and on-site training roles and that it would become a management role, the title
of which would be Quality Assurance & Training Lead. We were given the
option of taking voluntary redundancy or being an on-site trainer or an auditor.
I decided to apply for the Quality Assurance & Training Lead role instead and
started in my new role as a classroom trainer in April 2019.
Broadly speaking, the Quality Assurance & Training Lead role, also referred to
as a "classroom trainer’, had two parts. The first was quality assurance which
involved visiting branches to ensure that the training being delivered by on-site
trainers was adequate. This part of the role was one of the reasons I applied
for the job as I thought it would be interesting and a chance to make a difference
to the experience of Postmasters. In practice, in my experience, these visits
were not carried out very often; initially, the framework for conducting them was
not yet in place, and then later we did not typically have the capacity alongside
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delivering classroom training to undertake them. Furthermore, during the
pandemic, there were fewer opportunities to undertake these kinds of in-person
visits in any case as government restrictions prevented any non-business
critical activities from taking place in-person.
The second part of the role was classroom training. This involved delivering a
PowerPoint presentation over the course of two or three days. The content was
fixed and my responsibility was to deliver the training in the right order and in
the right way without missing any sections out. At the outset of the pandemic
there was a period of approximately one month where we did not deliver any
classroom training, but after that we resumed with social distancing measures
in place. I do not recall ever speaking to the BSC in this role; as I was not
interacting with branches directly there was no reason for me to do so.
Finally, in September 2021, I started my current job as a Business Support
Manager. This role involves visiting branches and onboarding new
Postmasters. I understand that this was another role which was created in
2019, in light of the issues that arose in the Group Litigation, in order to provide
more support for Postmasters in the early days of taking over a branch. As a
Business Support Manager, my responsibility is to act as a point of contact for
new Postmasters, providing support in the initial six months. I am currently
assigned to three area managers in the South East region, and four area
managers in the Home Counties region, which together contain a total of 698
branches. Of the 698 branches, I am responsible for any which are either new
or undergoing a transfer process, known as "early days" branches. There are
currently fourteen "early days" branches within my region.
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20. I am also responsible for interviewing prospective new Postmasters and
assessing them against a checklist of five areas. The five areas are: Retail
Business plan / relevance; Business development / growth for Post Office;
Customer Experience; Staff Management; and Community.
21. I donot contact the BSC in my current role although I do sometimes recommend
to Postmasters that they do so, for example when they need to make an
emergency order for stock, or they need to temporarily adjust opening hours,
or if they have an issue carrying out a transaction.
Experience working in IT roles
22. I have used computer systems, including EPOS systems in my customer
service jobs prior to joining POL and, during my time at POL, Horizon in
particular. Other than that I have not had any experience working in IT roles,
whilst at POL or otherwise.
Experience acting as a trainer
23. The focus of my role as a trainer on Horizon has generally been to teach
Postmasters and assistants how to use Horizon to account for the sorts of
transactions that they deal with in-branch. I have also trained Postmasters on
how to use a Paystation, which is the machine used for topping up electronic
cards, electricity keys, etc.
24. Since I became a Business Support Manager, as noted above, my role has
been to provide ongoing support to the Postmaster for their first six months in-
branch, including in respect of Horizon but also in a broader pastoral capacity.
I aim to make sure that Postmasters have the support they need to enable a
branch to be capable operationally. In the past this has included training on how
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to declare money left at the end of the day, on how to return money left in the
safe or, in one instance, leafletting in the local community to drum up business
for the branch.
Experience using the Horizon IT System
25. When I joined POL, I used Horizon directly in my role working on the counter.
The only issue I experienced was that it was quite slow, I assume due to it being
an old computer system. I do not think that this generally affected transactions
with customers, but rather it slowed down the balancing process in the
evenings. When I moved to Cambridge in 2010, I started working with Horizon
Online which was generally faster. Most of my career was spent working with
Horizon Online.
26. When I became a Field Support Advisor in 2013 and throughout my time in this
role, rather than logging on to Horizon myself I would typically ask the
Postmaster to log on. I would observe the Postmaster using the system and
guide them through transactions to train them. In my experience this was
standard practice for Field Support Advisors.
27. As Quality Assurance & Training Lead, when delivering classroom-based
training, my interaction with Horizon was in a locked-down system which was
used for training purposes. This system is reset for each training session and
is loaded with "toy" money and stock to simulate the Horizon system in a
branch. The training system behaves like the live version of Horizon which is
used in-branch, but there are no real-life consequences arising from carrying
out a transaction incorrectly.
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Aside from the point I mentioned at paragraph 25 about the earlier version of
Horizon being relatively slow, I personally do not recall encountering any issues
with Horizon. This is, at least in part, why I felt confident when going out into
the field that everything was fine with the system. I worked on the counter in
POL branches for six years before moving into a training role and I do not recall
seeing anything which gave cause for concern. Nor do I recall any of the
Postmasters with whom I worked subsequently ever raising any concerns in
relation to bugs or errors with me.
Where Postmasters were having issues with Horizon, it typically appeared to
me that it was because of a lack of understanding that they had about how the
system worked, as opposed to any issue with the Horizon system itself. Often
when Postmasters experienced an issue, we as trainers were able to solve the
issue because we understood the system in detail, and could explain how to
rectify the issue. For example, it is possible to reverse certain transactions
through Horizon. Postage transactions, however, cannot be reversed as there
is a spoilt label process for these instead. Sometimes Postmasters would try to
reverse a postage transaction without spoiling the label and would think that
they had been successful. This would result in an issue when balancing as the
postage transaction would not in fact have been reversed and the till would be
down by the value of the postage transaction. The spoilt label process is now
covered in training, and was covered in the Horizon user guides (if not also in
training) previously, but due to the number of topics covered, Postmasters
understandably struggled to remember everything.
I would note that POL did not (and has never) clearly or categorically explained
to me, or to my knowledge, to the wider training team, what the issues with
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Horizon were, or the timeframe within which any such issues arose. It was my
understanding that the issues were alleged to have taken place prior to me
taking on my first training role in 2013 and that by the time I had started in the
role the issues that were alleged had ceased.
I recall that at some point during my first few years in the training role, around
2014 or 2015, I started to hear suggestions amongst people within the business
that there had historically been issues with Horizon. Some members of the Field
Support Advisor team (which sits within the training and audit team) were
seconded to Project Sparrow. I understood this project to have been dealing
with an investigation into the issues that were being alleged. I am not sure what
role my Field Support Advisor colleagues were performing in the Project
Sparrow team, but I think they were the first people to tell me about the
allegations that were being made in relation to issues with Horizon. My
understanding at the time was that the issues that people were describing
typically related to audit - i.e. that in some cases, where the audit team had
been called to investigate a discrepancy, the Postmaster would respond that
Horizon was to blame. I had not personally experienced this during my time in
audit - my experience of conducting audits found that in the infrequent instances
where there had been a discrepancy at a branch, the Postmaster would
typically volunteer information on where the missing money had gone.
Roughly around the same time that my colleagues in the Field Support Advisor
team were seconded to Project Sparrow (i.e. 2014 or 2015), I recall being told
that if someone asked me whether there was a problem with Horizon, I should
respond that there were no issues with it. I assume this would have been
communicated to me by manager at the time, Jane Rattue, although I do not
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recall the specific conversation. As far as I am aware, this was also
communicated to all Field Support Advisors both verbally and by email. I exhibit
to this statement copies of the emails sent to me by Jane Rattue dated 11
September 2014 (WITN06380101) and Julia Marwood dated 14 August 2015
(WITN06380102) to pass on messages from the Communications Team in this
regard.
33. _ I was led to believe that the instances of people having issues with Horizon had
been extremely rare and, as noted in paragraph 30 above, I believed that in any
case they had ceased by the time I started training in 2013. I did not raise the
subject of potential issues with Horizon with Postmasters proactively and I do
not remember a Postmaster asking me about it.
34. I believed the assurances that were provided to me around this time, because
they were clear and came from people who were more senior than me, because
I had not personally encountered problems with Horizon, and because I had not
personally had any experience of a Postmaster raising any such issues with
me.
TRAINING RECEIVED TOWARDS BEING A TRAINER
35. I have been asked to describe any training I received towards being a trainer
for users of the Horizon IT system. When I took on the role of Field Support
Advisor, I recall being asked to shadow a more experienced trainer for a period
of approximately 2-3 months. I do not recall receiving any formal classroom
training prior to starting the job. After this I was allowed to lead the training
myself with someone shadowing me. I cannot remember how regularly we
received training after this initial period. A few times a year we would have a
"Work Time Learning" session where the trainers would gather in one of the
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Counter Training Offices ("CTOs") to discuss subjects related to the training
role. I cannot remember the content covered in these sessions. If I had a
question in this role, I would ask one of my colleagues or my manager.
Whilst in this role, managers would visit the branch (usually on an unannounced
visit) to observe the training being delivered. I cannot recall exactly how often
these visits happened. I can only remember one instance where I recall
receiving such a visit from my manager, following which I received positive
feedback. An example of one of the things they observed was whether trainers
were utilising role play to practice different transactions and scenarios in quiet
periods (rather than simply waiting for the next customer to come into the
branch).
When I moved into the Quality Assurance & Training Lead role in 2019 I
received more formal training. I remember receiving specific training around the
10/20/70 training model used by POL (I understand this to be 10% online
training, 20% classroom training, 70% on-site training). There was also an
accreditation process operated by POL which required people to complete
certain tasks and evidence them in order to become accredited. These tasks
were set out in a PDF booklet and I would discuss with my manager how I was
going to achieve each of them. I achieved an "intermediate" accreditation
shortly before I moved into the Business Support Manager role in 2021. I exhibit
to this statement the framework for this accreditation ( WITN06380103). I was
pleased to receive the accreditation, and I understand that I was one of the first
POL employees to do so.
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38. We were also observed by a manager on a quarterly basis, who would assess
whether we were "competent", "competent with development needs", or "not
competent" and provide feedback.
39. When I was in the Quality Assurance & Training Lead role, we also had weekly
calls to catch up with other trainers. Every six weeks we would have a wider
team meeting during which one trainer would deliver a 30-minute training
session over Microsoft Teams to the other trainers, and the other trainers would
provide feedback.
40. I have been asked to explain the training I provided to persons on the use of
the Horizon IT system.
TRAINING PROVIDED TO PERSONS ON THE USE OF HORIZON
Training delivery
Field Support Advisor
41. In my role as Field Support Advisor, I delivered training in-branch. For the
Postmaster, this training would have followed on from a period of classroom
training which all new Postmasters received.
42. I would note that Field Support Advisors are typically responsible for training
Postmasters, and Postmasters are then in turn typically responsible for training
their staff, however we would often help train staff as well. Additionally, we
provided Postmasters with resources to assist them with training staff.
Quality Assurance & Training Lead
43. Asa Quality Assurance & Training Lead my role included delivering classroom
training. I would teach a classroom of up to eight delegates who each had
access to a training Horizon terminal. The training was offered to Postmasters
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but they were always welcome to bring their assistants to the course as well.
We always tried to make a minimum of two spaces per branch available on
each course and in my experience these were usually filled. The training was
held in CTOs across the country.
Business Support Manager
44. In my current role as a Business Support Manager, I provide early days support
when a new branch opens or is transferred to a new Postmaster. I provide one
initial visit when the branch first opens, followed by another visit one week later.
After that I visit the branch once a month for the first six months. The visits can
last up to a whole day depending on the level of support the Postmaster
requires. In my experience, the emphasis of the Business Support Manager
role is on the Postmaster receiving training and broader support on what he or
she wants (such as if they have specific queries or areas where they want help),
rather than it being limited to what the trainer would otherwise cover based on
the transactions presented by customers on the day. As a Business Support
Manager I now also have more options for resources which I can direct
Postmasters to for additional support.
Training content
Field Support Advisor
45. As noted at paragraph 41 above, when I was a Field Support Advisor, training
was delivered in-branch. This meant that the content of the training was often
determined by the customers who visited the branch, and the transactions they
wanted to carry out. This would cover points such as banking, postage, bill
payments and travel. If the training was taking place in a new branch which had
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not yet built up a customer base, there would more often be quieter periods
during which we would discuss transactions in theory or act out transactions in
role play. Towards the end of the day, I would train the Postmaster on end-of-
day matters such as preparing for the postman and cash declarations.
I had a checklist of topics to cover, and I would try to use each on-site training
session to cover as many as possible. These checklists were stored on
SharePoint and could be printed off to use as a training aide. We were
encouraged to download the most up-to-date version of the checklist each time
we used one. I also had access to a bank of other resources and training
materials including guides on how to account for the lottery, how to balance and
how to do the accounting at the end of each day. These were stored on EASE,
which was a site hosted by SharePoint. EASE was later called the Knowledge
Centre. Certain guides were specific to either local or main branches.
Around 2015, the checklists became part of the branch contact files ("BCFs"),
which were a more formal record of the training delivered on-site. Field Support
Advisors were required to upload a BCF to SharePoint detailing the subjects
that had been covered in training.
Quality Assurance & Training Lead
When I was a Quality Assurance & Training Lead, classroom trainers were
provided with the PowerPoint presentation and the trainer notes, as well as the
training Horizon terminals and other training aides such as mock parcels,
mailsacks, labels etc. My timetable for providing this classroom training
alternated between one week of onboarding for new Postmasters, and one
week of optional refresher courses for existing Postmasters. These refresher
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49.
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courses were documented in a training catalogue which was available to all
Postmasters. Postmasters could approach their Area Manager and request to
attend a particular course.
There was a limited number of topics which could not be covered in the
classroom but had to be taught on-site, for example MoneyGram.
Business Support Manager
In my current role I do not generally provide training directly as this is provided
by classroom trainers and Field Support Advisors (now called on-site trainers)
as set out above. In my first visit to the branch, I explain what tools are available
to help Postmasters manage their business. This includes e-learning, refresher
classroom training sessions, and how-to videos which are available on the
branch hub and cover a range of topics.
During my visits I assess what the Postmaster is doing well, and what they are
not doing so well and need further support on. I also review the relevant Branch
Insight Tool (BIT) in advance of the visit to check whether they are managing
their cash accurately. However, the main priority of the visit is to speak to the
Postmaster and ask how they are doing and what support they require. One
example of an issue I occasionally deal with is when a Postmaster accidentally
presses the "Declare Stock" button on Horizon. This button overrides the
automated stocklist in Horizon and prompts a Postmaster to input their stock
manually for the rest of the trading period. Due to the number of items listed for
selection, Postmasters usually make an error when recording stock manually,
causing discrepancies. As mentioned in paragraph 73 below, I suggested this
button be removed. Other examples of typical activities I carry out with the
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Postmasters include processing remittances for stock, or resolving mail
segregation errors.
Balancing
52.
53.
54.
Field Support Advisor
When I was a Field Support Advisor, the amount of training delivered on
balancing varied from branch to branch. It depended on the Postmaster's own
availability and how much support they required. I would always try to include
at least two sessions on balancing with each Postmaster in on-site training and
I would also visit the branch on the first Wednesday after the initial training,
after branch opening to assist with a Trading Period Balance. If it seemed as
though a Postmaster was struggling, I would always try to offer them more
support. In my experience (across the three training roles I have held)
Postmasters did not find balancing to be a particular issue (i.e. relative to other
areas of the training that I deliver). However, a balancing error has
consequences in a way that other parts of the job do not and it is therefore
important that Postmasters ensure they understand it.
Quality Assurance & Training Lead
When I was a Quality Assurance & Training Lead, all delegates received at
least two sessions on balancing as part of their classroom training. Mains
branches typically had an additional day of training, which featured a third
session on balancing.
Business Support Manager
In my current role, I can recommend training on balancing to Postmasters who
are struggling. This could be refresher classroom training, or e-learning. In my
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experience, not all Postmasters can find the time to attend an in-person course
around running their branch(es), so we try to make other resources available to
them as well.
Identifying the cause of discrepancies
Field Support Advisor
55. As a Field Support Advisor, in my experience, training on identifying
discrepancies was not typically provided. I do not think it was the case that it
was avoided, but the training was typically reactive to what was happening in
the branch on any given day, so unless a discrepancy actually arose, how to
identify or investigate it would not be covered. In my view this meant that
Postmasters did not get enough training on this subject, and in my subsequent
role I was involved in improving this (see paragraph 57).
56. We would sometimes give Postmasters hints and tips on how to deal with
discrepancies if they came up — for example, we would tell them that if a
discrepancy was divisible by nine, then it was probably caused by a transposed
figure (this is where the numbers in a figure are reversed, for example 52
instead of 25 - the difference between the two figures (27) is always divisible by
9; I learnt this from more experienced staff when I was working in-branch).
Other than that, I would often advise Postmasters that if they encountered a
problem, they should report it to the BSC immediately.
Quality Assurance & Training Lead
57. Prior to starting in the Quality & Assurance Training Lead role in 2019, I was
not aware that specific training on identifying discrepancies existed, however
we would cover it on an intervention visit. When I applied for the role of Quality
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Assurance & Training Lead, as part of the interview process, I was asked to
prepare a presentation on a topic that I thought Postmasters should learn about.
I chose to present on investigating discrepancies, based on the experience that
I had in audit (as well as training). As an auditor, we would print certain Horizon
reports in a certain order to find the cause of the discrepancy. I thought it would
be useful for Postmasters to know how these reports worked so that they could
look for the cause of the discrepancy themselves. I wanted them to have the
skills that they needed.
I continued to raise the need for this training with my manager at the time,
Maree Young, in one-to-one sessions after I was appointed to the role. She was
supportive of my suggestion to introduce the identifying discrepancies training
and seemed to want to carry the idea forward. She asked me what format I
considered would be best, to which I responded classroom training. Ultimately,
the presentation I prepared went on to be used in the development of classroom
training for Postmasters on investigating discrepancies, which was rolled out in
summer 2020. This "Investigating Discrepancies" training session was a non-
compulsory half-day (3-hour) course in a classroom. As covered in paragraph
75 below, I would have liked the course to be compulsory. In my experience of
delivering the session, each of the eight Horizon terminals in the classroom
would have been set up with three discrepancies built in prior to the
Postmasters arriving. The first discrepancy was the same across all eight
terminals, the next two discrepancies were different for each of the eight
terminals. The Postmasters would then have to work to resolve the discrepancy
with support from the trainer. I am not sure whether the format of the course is
still the same now.
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Business Support Manager
59. In my current role I am able to recommend training on identifying discrepancies
to Postmasters. This training could take the form of classroom training or an e-
learning module. I can also request an intervention where issues have been
identified. This could be a phone call or a visit from a trainer in order to deliver
additional training on an area that the Postmaster has demonstrated having
difficulty with. It could also be a support visit from a member of the audit team
to find the source of the discrepancy, which is intended to provide support to
(rather than to investigate) the Postmaster.
FEEDBACK RECEIVED FROM TRAINEES
60. I have been asked to set out my recollection of any specific or general feedback
I received from trainees on the training available, and what I did with such
feedback.
Field Support Advisor
61. In my role as Field Support Advisor, after the end of a training session in the
branch, we would leave a feedback form with the Postmaster. This was left with
a prepaid envelope for the Postmaster to complete and return in their own time,
after the trainer had left the site. The feedback was always anonymous and
asked Postmasters to rate different aspects of the training on a scale of 1-5.
During this period an external organisation called Kendata was responsible for
gathering the feedback, which would then be passed on to the POL managers.
Feedback was not normally passed on to the trainer as a matter of course, so I
would tend to assume that a lack of feedback indicated that I had done a good
job. On the other hand, if one trainer regularly received the same piece of
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62.
63.
64.
65.
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negative feedback, this would be passed on. We had to reach a certain
feedback score for our manager to be satisfied. I do not recall ever receiving
any specific negative feedback on my own training.
In addition, I understood that my manager would sometimes contact the
Postmaster by telephone after a training session to ask whether the Postmaster
was Satisfied with the training that had been provided.
Postmasters did not generally share their views on the content on the training
with me, beyond saying that they were happy with the training received.
Considering they were new to the job, and new to Horizon, it was difficult for
them to be aware of areas on which they may have liked further training. They
may have formed views on the training content later, with the benefit of
hindsight, but I do not recall any occasion where a Postmaster shared such
views with me.
Quality Assurance & Training Lead
In the Quality Assurance & Training Lead role we had a similar form for
requesting feedback, which we would leave on the desks of the delegates on
the last day of training. The responses would be input into Microsoft Forms,
along with a photo of the paper form, which would be saved onto a database.
As far as I am aware, a new procedure for gathering feedback has been
introduced since then, but I am not aware of the details.
Business Support Manager
In my current role, there is no formal process of requesting feedback however
I encourage people to share their views with me by being generally open and
honest.
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AWARENESS OF BUGS, ERRORS OR DEFECTS IN THE HORIZON IT SYSTEM
66. I have been asked if I was aware of any bugs, errors or defects in the Horizon
IT System when I provided training, and if not, to explain whether my approach
to training would have differed if I were aware that Horizon IT System had bugs,
errors and defects.
67. I was not aware of any bugs, errors or defects in Horizon. In my own experience
working in a branch, I do not recall experiencing any issues (apart from the point
I note at paragraph 25 above about the earlier system being quite slow). In my
later role as a trainer, I was assured by people in more senior positions, whom
I trusted, that there were no issues, as noted at paragraph 34 above. The
rumours that I had heard did not impact on the training that I delivered because
I was confident on the basis of my experience and what I had been told that
Horizon was not a faulty system.
68. If I had believed there were issues with the system, especially issues which
would affect people in the ways that have later become apparent, I would not
have wanted to continue working for POL, either as a trainer or in any other
capacity. I trusted when I was told by the business that the system was robust
and that there were no issues that this was the truth.
ADEQUACY OF TRAINING ON HORIZON
69. I have been asked to consider whether, in hindsight, I consider the training on
Horizon to have been adequate.
Balancing and the general use of Horizon
70. Generally speaking, I believe that the training provided was adequate.
However, everyone's needs are different and what may have been adequate
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WA:
72.
73.
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for one person may not have been adequate for someone else, for example
someone with less business experience may struggle to grasp the concepts
being explained as quickly as others. I would have liked to see a wider training
offering being made available for those who needed it.
I would note that the length of time new Postmasters spend in classroom
training when acquiring a branch has reduced over time. When I first joined
POL, this phase of training was two weeks; as I understand it, it is now 2-3
days. My understanding is that one reason behind this is to reduce the cost to
the Postmaster (i.e. by reducing the amount of time they are away from their
branch). On a related note, one other point to bear in mind is that in my
experience, when a Postmaster has recently opened a new branch they have
often bought a new retail business alongside it and they have multiple
responsibilities demanding their time and attention (including e.g. putting retail
stock on the shelves, meeting and training new staff, learning the retail till
system, etc). Horizon training is, of course, important, but it is not always the
number one priority for Postmasters.
I believe that classroom training is becoming more structured, which helps to
ensure that Postmasters receive adequate training. In 2019, I am aware that a
checklist of "non-negotiables" for setting up the classroom were introduced. My
understanding is that this was implemented in order to address some of the
issues that arose in the Group Litigation (again, I am not aware of which ones).
Balancing was included as a standalone session on the classroom training
agenda.
Turning to a specific example of how training could be improved, as indicated
in paragraph 51 above, the "Declare Stock" button caused significant issues
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with balancing for Postmasters. As far as I am aware, trainers suggested on
more than one occasion that the button be removed. I understand, however,
that the button is involved in certain back-end processes in Horizon and cannot
be changed, and also that it would be expensive for Fujitsu to make this kind of
change to the system. Furthermore, when I was in the Quality Assurance &
Training Lead role as a classroom trainer, there was nothing in the guides that
were provided to Postmasters to tell them not to press this button. I used to tell
people to write it in their guides themselves. I am not sure whether this
instruction has since been included in the guides given to Postmasters.
Identifying the cause of discrepancies
74. In the first six years of my time as a trainer with POL, in my experience, there
was not enough training on identifying the cause of discrepancies. That is why,
when I applied for the Quality Assurance & Training Lead role, I said I wanted
to see more training on this subject and prepared the proposal that I refer to at
paragraph 57 above.
75. As noted above, the course is optional. I would have liked to see identifying the
cause of discrepancies as part of the basic training package, but it is not. As a
Quality Assurance & Training Lead, I used to encourage all the branches who
attended a classroom training course with me to book to attend the session
after the branch has been open for three months. In my current role I still
occasionally recommend this course, but less frequently as it will usually have
been recommended to Postmasters by someone else during the formal training
sessions (i.e. classroom training or in-branch training provided by a Field
Support Advisor, now called an on-site trainer). If it appeared that a branch was
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encountering problems and I thought they needed the training, I would definitely
recommend it.
Statement of truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
Dated: 19 January 2023
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Index to the First Witness Statement of Joanne Scott-Ison
No. I URN Document Description Control Number
1 WITN06380101 I Email from Jane Rattue dated 11 POL-0104294
September 2014
2 I WITNO6380102 I Email from Julia Marwood dated 14 POL-0104295
August 2015
3 WITN06380103 I Quality Assurance & Training Lead POL-0104296
Accreditation Framework (February
2020)
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Witness Name: Joanne Scott-lson
Statement No.: WITN06380100
Dated: 19 January 2023
THE POST OFFICE
HORIZON IT INQUIRY
WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOANNE
SCOTT-ISON
Herbert Smith Freehills LLP
Exchange House
Primrose Street
London
EC2A 2EG
Ref: 9100/31056398
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