Official hearing page

21 February 2022 – John Dickson, Pauline Thomson, Timothy Burgess, Oyeteju Adedayo and Siobhan Sayer

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(10.00 am)

Ms Kennedy: Good morning, Chair.

Sir Wyn Williams: Good morning. Are we all connected properly.

Ms Kennedy: Yes, Chair, I believe so. Our first witness today is Mr John Dickson.

Mr John Dickson

MR JOHN DICKSON, affirmed.

Sir Wyn Williams: Good morning, Mr Dickson. I am very pleased that you have been able to make it down from Mansfield in order to give evidence.

Questioned by Ms Kennedy

Ms Kennedy: My name is Ruth Kennedy and, as I think you know, I ask questions on behalf of the Chair. Have you got a copy of your witness statement there with you?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: And I think it should be dated 14 January 2022.

Mr John Dickson: Correct.

Ms Kennedy: Is that your signature on page 14 of the statement?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: Have you read through this statement recently?

Mr John Dickson: Not recently.

Ms Kennedy: Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief so far as you are aware?

Mr John Dickson: (The witness nodded).

Ms Kennedy: I’m going to begin by asking a few questions about you. How old are you now?

Mr John Dickson: 65.

Ms Kennedy: You talk in your statement about your wife. How long have you been married?

Mr John Dickson: Oh, that’s a question.

Ms Kennedy: A long time?

Mr John Dickson: A long time.

Ms Kennedy: What family do you have?

Mr John Dickson: I’ve got two sons.

Ms Kennedy: Prior to working for the Post Office, who did you work for?

Mr John Dickson: Rolls-Royce.

Ms Kennedy: What jobs did you do for Rolls-Royce?

Mr John Dickson: Back then I was what they call a wibbler, fitter, vertical borer, centre lathe turner, general engineering basically.

Ms Kennedy: How long did you work for them for?

Mr John Dickson: 22 years.

Ms Kennedy: I think you say in your statement you bought a Post Office in 1996. Would that be about right?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: Where was that?

Mr John Dickson: That was down in Terling in Essex.

Ms Kennedy: I think it was called Terling Post Office; is that right?

Mr John Dickson: It’s quite close – well, it’s between Chelmsford, Witham and Braintree, like a triangle, and it’s right in the middle.

Ms Kennedy: Why did you want to buy a Post Office?

Mr John Dickson: Well, every couple of months we were getting redundancies at Rolls-Royce then and I was seeing everyone who I’d been working with, they were all going, going their different ways, so I thought then was the time to change tack, especially after 22 years it’s time for a change anyway.

Ms Kennedy: And why the Post Office?

Mr John Dickson: Well, there were – gave you – there was an income coming in from the Post Office but you also had your chance of building up your own retail side as well to enhance that.

Ms Kennedy: You then relocated to Mansfield. Why was that?

Mr John Dickson: Landlord was trying to enforce an unfair lease on us, so …

Ms Kennedy: You gave up the Terling Post Office and moved to Mansfield?

Mr John Dickson: Moved to a Mansfield Post Office. Also he wanted to get back on to the housing market because this got – this one was going to be a freehold, whereas we were just a tenant down in Terling.

Ms Kennedy: Which Post Office did you then take over in 2009?

Mr John Dickson: The one up in Mansfield?

Ms Kennedy: Yes, what was –

Mr John Dickson: Pleasley Post Office.

Ms Kennedy: How did you finance the purchase of that Post Office?

Mr John Dickson: By selling me previous business.

Ms Kennedy: Did you have a mortgage?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: Or business loan?

Mr John Dickson: It was a business loan.

Ms Kennedy: And where was that Post Office in relation to your home?

Mr John Dickson: It was part of the home.

Ms Kennedy: And who operated that Post Office with you?

Mr John Dickson: My wife and we had one assistant.

Ms Kennedy: Could you just explain to the Chair what kind of services you offered in that Post Office?

Mr John Dickson: Pensions, benefit payments, car tax, foreign exchange.

Ms Kennedy: And how long did you think you would continue working as a subpostmaster for?

Mr John Dickson: Until I retired.

Ms Kennedy: What training did you receive on Horizon?

Mr John Dickson: I received that down in Essex. Down in Terling. I had – I was on a two-day course held in a hotel just outside Colchester.

Ms Kennedy: When you took over at Pleasley, what training did you get then?

Mr John Dickson: Well, we only really had training on how to do car tax because we didn’t do that down in Terling, but we’d already been using the other transactions for, oh … I think we were 13 years down in Terling.

Ms Kennedy: I’m now going to move on to ask you questions about the alleged shortfalls. You’d noticed alleged shortfalls appearing on the Horizon system. What would you do when you noticed shortfalls appearing?

Mr John Dickson: Well, if they were small we just put the money into the – make the balance up.

Ms Kennedy: What kind of sums were those?

Mr John Dickson: £5 or £10 at the time.

Ms Kennedy: Would you call the helpline?

Mr John Dickson: For that sort of sum, probably not.

Ms Kennedy: What did you think would happen with the alleged shortfalls if they were bigger?

Mr John Dickson: Well, then – then you had to notify them.

Ms Kennedy: And prior to the audit that took place on 14 October 2011, what action would the Post Office take in respect of alleged shortfalls?

Mr John Dickson: They expect you to pay them back.

Ms Kennedy: And when you phoned the helpline, how helpful did you find it?

Mr John Dickson: Useless.

Ms Kennedy: Why was it useless?

Mr John Dickson: They’d just say, “Well, you have to pay it back. You’ll get an error notice some through”. Sometimes we did, sometimes we didn’t.

Ms Kennedy: You were then audited on 14 October 2011; is that right? Does that sound about right?

Mr John Dickson: Sounds about right.

Ms Kennedy: Who audited you?

Mr John Dickson: I don’t know the name of the person.

Ms Kennedy: Was it just one person?

Mr John Dickson: Oh, yeah, one person, yeah.

Ms Kennedy: And what did he tell you the shortfall was?

Mr John Dickson: Something in the region of 29,000-something. I said, “No, it can’t be”.

Ms Kennedy: I think you were then suspended after that audit; is that right?

Mr John Dickson: (The witness nodded)

Ms Kennedy: And how did you feel then when you were suspended?

Mr John Dickson: Not very good.

Ms Kennedy: You were interviewed on around 3 November 2011. Where were you interviewed?

Mr John Dickson: In Chesterfield.

Ms Kennedy: Do you remember who interviewed you then?

Mr John Dickson: Chris – Chris Knight was one of the investigators. He was there at the interview.

Ms Kennedy: And who else was there?

Mr John Dickson: I couldn’t tell you their names, to be honest with you, apart from the woman from the – Kim Ledger.

Ms Kennedy: From the NFSP –

Mr John Dickson: Yeah.

Ms Kennedy: – is that right? And your wife was there with you as well; is that right?

Mr John Dickson: Yeah.

Ms Kennedy: What did they ask you at that investigation meeting?

Mr John Dickson: The main question I can remember them asking me was where I thought the money had gone.

Ms Kennedy: What did you say in response to that question?

Mr John Dickson: “Stuck in your system”.

Ms Kennedy: And what did they think of that explanation?

Mr John Dickson: They didn’t say anything about that.

Ms Kennedy: How well did you feel supported by the NFSP?

Mr John Dickson: I wasn’t.

Ms Kennedy: I think you say in your statement that they then go on – went on to do a search. What did they search?

Mr John Dickson: They searched our house, the car, everything.

Ms Kennedy: How did that make you feel?

Mr John Dickson: It’s a bit degrading, isn’t it?

Ms Kennedy: After that you say in your statement you were given a choice. That choice was to resign or be dismissed; is that right?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: What did you decide to do?

Mr John Dickson: Resign.

Ms Kennedy: And why was that?

Mr John Dickson: I didn’t want a dismissal stuck on a CV if I was going to have to look for another job and, to be honest with you, after what they’d done I wouldn’t want to work for them again.

Ms Kennedy: You then received a summons in I think –

Sir Wyn Williams: Ms Kennedy, before we go on to the summons, can I just ask one question about the interview, please.

In your statement, Mr Dickson, if you want to look at paragraph 21 just for a point of reference, you introduce that paragraph by saying:

“I was then interviewed with my wife.”

And what I wanted to get from you is whether she was simply present at your interview or whether she was also interviewed.

Mr John Dickson: My wife was also interviewed.

Sir Wyn Williams: Fine. Thank you. That’s it. Thanks very much. Carry on, Ms Kennedy.

Ms Kennedy: Thank you. So turning to the summons that you received in around March 2012, who was charged?

Mr John Dickson: I was – I was charged.

Ms Kennedy: And I think also you –

Mr John Dickson: My wife was also charged as well.

Ms Kennedy: And what did you later find out about the charge against your wife?

Mr John Dickson: It shouldn’t – it should never have happened.

Ms Kennedy: Why was that?

Mr John Dickson: She hasn’t signed anything for the Post Office.

Ms Kennedy: Why did you think the charges were brought against your wife?

Mr John Dickson: Because they – they obviously knew we were a partnership, but only one – it’s only ever one subpostmaster in a branch, and that was me.

Ms Kennedy: What did you plead eventually?

Mr John Dickson: Guilty.

Ms Kennedy: And why did you plead guilty?

Mr John Dickson: Because I was offered a choice of – I asked the barrister if you keep my wife out of it, I will plead guilty. Otherwise, if I’d have known she shouldn’t have been in there in the first place, I would never have pleaded guilty.

Ms Kennedy: I think you were then sentenced on 26 July 2012. What sentence did you receive? Do you remember? I think you say in your statement it was an eight-month sentence suspended for two years?

Mr John Dickson: Suspended for two years and 180 hours community service.

Ms Kennedy: And you were also told you had to repay the money to the Post Office; is that right?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: The Post Office took a confiscation order on 12 October 2012. What were you ordered to repay per week? I think in your statement you say initially £15 and then £100 a week.

Mr John Dickson: Yeah, £15 initially and then the magistrate thought that that wasn’t enough and she pushed it up to £100 a month.

Ms Kennedy: And what impact –

Mr John Dickson: No, it wasn’t a month, was it? It was a week.

Ms Kennedy: And what impact did that have on you and your wife?

Mr John Dickson: Well, if wasn’t for the fact that I was working away at the time it’s – if I hadn’t have been working away we’d have been out – out on the street, finished.

Ms Kennedy: And your conviction was overturned by the Court of Appeal last year; is that right?

Mr John Dickson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: I’m now going to ask some questions about the impact that all of this has had on you and your family. I believe you say in your statement that a charge was placed on your family home.

Mr John Dickson: Yeah.

Ms Kennedy: Is that right?

Mr John Dickson: Yeah.

Ms Kennedy: And what were the consequences of that for you and your wife?

Mr John Dickson: Well, if we were to have sold – sold the property we’d have been left with nothing to try and find somewhere else to live. So basically – well, in my view – in my opinion, we were held prisoner there.

Ms Kennedy: You stayed in that home?

Mr John Dickson: Yeah.

Ms Kennedy: What happened to the – you mentioned before that the Post Office was part of your home. What happened to that?

Mr John Dickson: That’s now just an empty shop, empty premises.

Ms Kennedy: And what’s happened to that charge?

Mr John Dickson: I believe it was withdrawn but I don’t remember it actually happening.

Ms Kennedy: Just turning then, I’m going to –

Sir Wyn Williams: Sorry to interrupt again, but I’m not quite sure what you mean by that, Mr Dickson, and I don’t want there to be any misunderstanding. Are we talking about the charge in the criminal proceedings or are we talking about a charge on your home?

Mr John Dickson: The charge on the property.

Sir Wyn Williams: Yes. And does that actually exist at the moment, as far as you know?

Mr John Dickson: As far as I’m aware, no, it doesn’t.

Sir Wyn Williams: Right.

Mr John Dickson: I believe it’s been lifted now.

Sir Wyn Williams: Yes, I’ve got it now. Thank you.

Ms Kennedy: How much money do you think that you paid the Post Office to make good the alleged shortfalls?

Mr John Dickson: Off the top of my head, I don’t know.

Ms Kennedy: What were the financial consequences of your conviction?

Mr John Dickson: Well, we were left with no income.

Ms Kennedy: What happened to your mortgage, for example?

Mr John Dickson: NatWest bank were very good. They froze it straight away.

Ms Kennedy: And you mentioned jobs a moment ago. Could you explain what jobs you got after your time as a subpostmaster?

Mr John Dickson: After?

Ms Kennedy: Yes.

Mr John Dickson: I got some relief work from companies like TM Steels in Chesterfield doing vertical boring with the relief work. Yeah, that was basically TM Steels. Then I went to Baker Blowers in Sheffield. I was doing vertical boring there.

Ms Kennedy: And what was the salary like for those jobs in comparison to what you were earning with the Post Office?

Mr John Dickson: They were – they were weekly paid, so as far as an hourly rate goes back, back then it was about £10/£11 an hour.

Ms Kennedy: What about your Rolls-Royce pension? I think you mention in your statement you drew that down early.

Mr John Dickson: Yes, that was to try and pay back some of the shortfall.

Ms Kennedy: And how much would you say roughly that would have amounted to?

Mr John Dickson: With the Rolls-Royce pension?

Ms Kennedy: Yes.

Mr John Dickson: The lump sum I got I paid straight back into the Post Office. I think it was £2,000.

Ms Kennedy: When did you intend to draw down that pension?

Mr John Dickson: Not until I retired.

Ms Kennedy: What impact did all of this have on your reputation in the community?

Please let me know if you’d like a moment.

Mr John Dickson: No, I’ll be all right.

Ms Kennedy: Take your time.

Mr John Dickson: Quite a lot of the community were quite supportive because they knew what we were like but there were a few that were nasty.

Ms Kennedy: And when you say nasty, what do you mean by that?

Mr John Dickson: Well, my wife was shouted at from across the street by one person who liked to advertise the fact she was a thief. It’s not nice.

Ms Kennedy: What impact did that have on your marriage?

Mr John Dickson: We’ve always been strong.

Ms Kennedy: What about –

Mr John Dickson: We support each other.

Ms Kennedy: What about your health? What impact has this had on your mental health?

Mr John Dickson: I didn’t think any but apparently it has.

Ms Kennedy: Why do you say that?

Mr John Dickson: Well, it’s something – all this I’ve tried to block out, don’t want to remember it.

Ms Kennedy: We’ve spoken about your wife. What about the rest of your family? How have they been affected by this?

Mr John Dickson: Ian doesn’t go out in the village anymore. Scott got away really quite lightly because his school was over the other side, so – over the other side of Mansfield – so they didn’t really know what was going on with us.

Ms Kennedy: And when you say one of your sons didn’t go out in the village, was that because of what people were saying?

Mr John Dickson: He was probably ashamed, like everyone else.

Ms Kennedy: What would you like from the Post Office now?

Mr John Dickson: Some accountability, someone to take responsibility for what’s happened.

Ms Kennedy: Is there anything else you’d like to say to the Chair?

Mr John Dickson: No, I don’t think so.

Ms Kennedy: I’m just going to turn to the Chair now to see if he has any questions.

Chair, do you have any questions? I think you’re on mute.

Sir Wyn Williams: No, thank you very much. I’ve asked the questions that I wanted to, so it just remains, Mr Dickson, for me to thank you for coming to tell me the effect all these things have had upon you, and I’m very grateful for you having the courage to do it. Thank you.

Ms Kennedy: Thank you. Chair, our next two witnesses are remote. I propose that we take a ten-minute break now to get that set up.

Sir Wyn Williams: Yes, of course.

Ms Kennedy: We’ll resume at 25 to.

Sir Wyn Williams: Yes, that’s fine, Ms Kennedy.

(10.21 am)

(A short break)

(10.35 am)

Ms Kennedy: Good morning. Chair, our next witness is Mrs Pauline Thomson.

Sir Wyn Williams: Mrs Thomson, and I have already introduced ourselves to each other, so we’re okay. Thanks.

Ms Kennedy: Very good.

Mrs Pauline Thomson

MRS PAULINE THOMSON (affirmed).

Questioned by Ms Kennedy

Ms Kennedy: Thank you. As I think you know, my name is Ruth Kennedy and I ask questions on behalf of the Chair. Have you got a copy of your witness statement there?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I have, yes.

Ms Kennedy: It should be dated 12 January 2022; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, it is, yes.

Ms Kennedy: If you turn to page 13, is that your signature there?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, it is.

Ms Kennedy: Have you read through this statement recently?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I read through it quickly this morning.

Ms Kennedy: Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It is indeed, yes.

Ms Kennedy: I’m going to start by asking a few introductory questions about you. Could you tell the Chair how old are you now?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I’m 72 now.

Ms Kennedy: And I believe you have children. How many children do you have?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I have two children, a son who’s 45 and lives in Sydney, and a daughter who’s – well, I better get her age right, 42 and lives in Oxford.

Ms Kennedy: And you were married for many years; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: We were married for 48 years in September but sadly my husband passed away the end of October.

Ms Kennedy: I’m now going to ask you some questions about your work with the Post Office.

When did you first start working for a Post Office?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Oh, when I was about – probably about 26/27. I’ve always worked in sub-post offices. Whenever we finished up living with my husband’s job, I usually managed to finish up working in the village sub-post offices.

Ms Kennedy: You just mentioned your husband’s job, what was his job then?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: He was a sales and marketing director for (unclear), which is a French company.

Ms Kennedy: And I think you said a moment ago you moved around a lot and that’s how you would get job since various different post offices as you moved with his job.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, we did. The only place I didn’t work in a Post Office was France. We lived in France for six years.

Ms Kennedy: And you say in your witness statement you became subpostmistress of Matfield branch in September 2004; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I did, yes.

Ms Kennedy: And what position or where were you working immediately before that; do you remember?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes. Before that, we lived in Berkshire in a village called Spencers Wood and I started working in the sub-post office there part-time. And then the owners wanted to retire, so they suggested that my husband and I move into the Post Office and I run it – well, we didn’t pay any rent, so that was my salary, and they moved down to Bournemouth. So I was kind of – I wasn’t – I was running it for them.

Ms Kennedy: You were the manager of that branch?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I was, yes.

Ms Kennedy: And why did you want to be a subpostmistress after that?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, I felt that the opportunity – I saw this opportunity, I think it was in The SubPostmaster’s magazine and it was for a position of being an actual subpostmistress and just buying into the actual business, and I thought, well, I’d really quite like to do all the hard work and get the benefit for myself, you know, instead of for somebody else really.

Ms Kennedy: How did you feel about working for the Post Office at that time?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, I still thoroughly enjoyed working for the Post Office. I always – I always had done. You know, I enjoyed – I enjoyed whichever sub-post office I was working in. I enjoyed it, I enjoy meeting people. So, yes, it just – it just really suited me.

Ms Kennedy: When you were working for the Post Office, what training did you receive on the Horizon system?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: On the Horizon system I was in Spencers Wood at that time, so the owner I think she got a full day’s training and my husband and I got half day each. We had to split it. We went to a hotel for the day’s training, and Barry went for the morning and I went for the afternoon. So half a day really.

Ms Kennedy: And what about when you became subpostmistress of the Matfield branch?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: No, I didn’t have any more training.

Ms Kennedy: I’m now going to ask you some questions about the alleged shortfalls that showed up on the system. I think you mention in your statement that between 2004 and 2007 you noticed some shortfalls appearing on the system; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It is, yes.

Ms Kennedy: Can you just describe to the Chair what you did when you noticed those shortfalls?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, I tried to make most of them up when I could but it was – it got to the stage that it was like looking at some other Post Office’s screen. It just – it just did not make sense because – I mean, it was a small sub-post office in a village and it was telling me that I should have at the time – just before the auditors came, it was telling me there should be £34,000 in cash. Well, that’s – that’s just not possible.

Ms Kennedy: Initially –

Mrs Pauline Thomson: A sub-post office would never have that.

Ms Kennedy: Initially you said you were making up these shortfalls. What kind of sums were they initially, these shortfalls?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, to start with they were, you know, maybe 100 – just over 100, which, you know, I just put in out of the shop side. But after that it got really big. I phoned the helpline but I didn’t get much help from them at all. And then I just, you know, literally kind of shut off from it, you know, left it and went home. I never told my husband anything about this because I wanted just to leave it in the Post Office and forget about it sort of thing.

Ms Kennedy: You mentioned you didn’t find the helpline helpful.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: No.

Ms Kennedy: Why was that?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, they just – the original postmistress had agreed that she would cover me for any holidays, et cetera, which I didn’t take anyway, but for my daughter’s wedding she took it over for me. And it’s a bit complicated but she’d rem’d out some cheques, which were £6,000, but she hadn’t completed it and it finished up trebling itself, and I phoned the helpline to get some help, but whoever should have helped me was on holiday and it just turned in – so even when the auditors arrived that discrepancy was still showing, so that was all part of it as well.

Ms Kennedy: So this was in – I think you mention in your statement it was June 2008 that you went away for your daughter’s wedding –

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: – which is what you just mentioned?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, I did.

Ms Kennedy: And I think what you’ve said is that when you got back you saw a bigger shortfall which you then tried to fix –

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: – by calling the helpline.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, I did.

Ms Kennedy: And so by September 2008, what shortfalls or what range of sums were being shown on the system as a shortfall in September 2008?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It finished up at 34,000 – 34,300 and something.

Ms Kennedy: And you just mentioned as well that you were audited. I think you say in your statement you were audited on 23 September 2008; is that about right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, that’s about right.

Ms Kennedy: And can you describe for the Chair how you felt –

Mrs Pauline Thomson: No, no, I’m sorry, it was earlier than that, it was about 11 September.

Ms Kennedy: Okay. Can you describe to the Chair how you felt when the auditors arrived?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, I walked down as usual with our dog to open up and I saw two men standing outside the Post Office and I thought auditors, and I was actually quite relieved because I thought, well, maybe at last there will be help – they will be able to help get to the bottom of it. And as soon I opened up I told them that the figure on the screen would not match the figure in the safe. I mean, I told them straight away that it wouldn’t match up.

Ms Kennedy: How many of them were there?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: There were two of them. They then gave me a sheet of paper and asked me to write down why the cash wouldn’t match up, which I didn’t write anything because I hadn’t a clue. I then phoned my husband, who hadn’t known anything about this, told him auditors had turned up, so he came down and got the dog and then they carried on with their audit.

And then in the afternoon, probably about 3 o’clock, two more men arrived, which were the Post Office investigators.

Ms Kennedy: And how do you feel you were – just focusing first on the two auditors, how do you feel you were treated by them?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: They were – they were – they were all right. No, they definitely – they were all right. One of them it was his first audit. He hadn’t done an audit before. No, they – they – they were – they were – they were quite nice. It changed when the investigators arrived.

Ms Kennedy: What were the two investigators like? How were you treated by them?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: One wouldn’t talk to me at all. The other one kind of made jokes. The owner of the – the Post Office was set inside a tearoom attached to a house, so it was – you know, it was quite a unique set-up, and the owner of the whole property had an Aston Martin, which was parked outside, so one of the – one of the investigators joked was that what I’d spent the money on. He seemed to think he was being quite funny.

Ms Kennedy: What did you think of that remark?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I didn’t think much of it at all. But he was obviously – you know, he was the – he was the one that was kind of the – you know, the nice jokey one sort of thing and the other one just wouldn’t talk to me at all.

Ms Kennedy: I think then you say they went away, and who did they return with?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: They – I just noticed they suddenly – they just suddenly disappeared. I was – I had a small shop in front of the Post Office, so I was selling newspapers, so I was getting the returns ready and I realised that they weren’t there, and I asked the auditors where they were, and they said, “Well, they’ve just gone” – or one of them said, “They’ve just gone to get some more – some paperwork”. And I carried on and then … sorry, five minutes later a police car pulled up in front of the Post Office.

Now, the Post Office is in the middle of the village opposite the butcher’s, which is the only other shop in the village, and the investigators’ car was behind that and then – oh, sorry, the two policemen came in and the one investigator that wouldn’t talk to me at all immediately said, “Charge her with theft”. No explanation, nothing just straight away “Charge, her with the theft”.

So I was charged with theft, put in the back of the police car, taken down to – I didn’t know where I was going actually. I was down to Tonbridge police station, had my DNA taken and fingerprints, put in a cell, and I was told by the police that – actually they were very nice – that they were getting a search warrant for the house, and they asked did my husband have any health problems, you know, in other words two policemen turning up at the door, and I said, no, but he had lost his only brother a few weeks earlier and his funeral was the Wednesday after I’d had the audit.

So they went to the house and then came back and then I was brought out the cell and then I was interviewed for I think it was well over an hour by the two investigators.

Ms Kennedy: How long were you held in a cell for?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Oh, it must – I don’t know because my watch and everything was taken from me. I would say it was probably a good hour – well, it felt a lot longer but I think it was about – I think it was an hour. I think they came back – I think the interview with them started at about 7.00, if I remember rightly, so it must have been well over an hour.

Ms Kennedy: And how did you feel about all of this at the time?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Absolutely awful. I just went blank. I just kind of froze. There was a very noisy neighbour in the other cell who did an awful lot of swearing. I just – I just literally blanked it, to be honest. I just sat there and just blanked it.

Ms Kennedy: I think that day you were also suspended; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I was, yes. They said I was suspended. Well, they suspended me. They interviewed me. I didn’t get – I didn’t get – I had to get a taxi home. I didn’t get home until after 9 o’clock. They must – they just went on and on at me, you know, “We know you’ve got debts”, which we had because my husband had been made redundant from a very well paid job, so we did have debts, but they were all being dealt with, and they just kept going on. The jokey one said they liked – he liked my dog and all the rest of it, and they just kept going on, “Did you take the money?” And I thankfully just kept saying, “No”. And then the interview was over. I was told by the investigators to return to the police station in ten days’ time.

I then got a taxi home and the keys of the safe and the Post Office were taken by them, so I couldn’t get in behind the Post Office, I just had the front of the small shop that I had. And the – yes, and then the following day I got a phone call saying I’d been suspended altogether. And then when my – I then got a lawyer involved and then, when the lawyer phoned the police station to find out exactly what day I had to return, they said I didn’t have to go back at all, they knew nothing about it. And when my lawyer phoned the Post Office, one of the investigators had been sent on long-term garden leave or something and nobody had been handed my case, so they didn’t really know anything about it. So it had to all start again.

Ms Kennedy: You mentioned – sorry, you mentioned that your husband didn’t know anything about the alleged shortfalls before that day?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: How did he feel about it or how was he when he found out about all of this?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It was just – it was – it was shock. We both were. You know, he felt I should have told him but I said I just wanted to leave it behind, you know, I wanted to come home and just act normally. I didn’t want – you know, I didn’t want him to be as worried as I was because I didn’t – I didn’t have an explanation. I didn’t tell – after it happened I didn’t tell our son or daughter, I didn’t tell my sisters for nearly – well, for nearly two years. You know, I was too ashamed. What do you say? And I was told that it was only me, there was no – nobody else had had any problems.

Ms Kennedy: I think almost a month later you were interviewed at Maidstone mail centre; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I was, yes.

Ms Kennedy: Can you describe for the Chair what happened at that interview.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, basically I had to go over everything again and they asked a whole lot of more questions, et cetera, and then at the end he said, “Well, I can’t find – you know, I can’t find anything to say that, you know, this hasn’t happened”, so everything, you know, went ahead after that.

Ms Kennedy: And I think you say in your statement it was on the day you returned from your husband’s brother’s funeral that you found the summons charging you with theft; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It was, yes. Yes, the audit was on the Friday, Russell’s funeral was on the Wednesday. We had to go to Nottingham and just pretend to all the family that everything was fine. And then when we came back that was what I came back to.

Ms Kennedy: And you say in your statement that you were initially just charged with theft. There were no false accounting charges initially; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: There wasn’t, no. He was insistent I was charged with theft, to which I pleaded not guilty.

Ms Kennedy: And then you say in your statement there was a plea deal and you say you pled guilty to three counts of false accounting; is that right?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, I had two appearances at the Magistrates’ Court because I pleaded not guilty to theft, I was sent to Maidstone Crown Court, and I think it was on – either the second or the third appearance that the Post Office barrister approached my barrister and said that they would – well, drop the theft charge, but I think the technical is put aside the theft charge if I pleaded guilty to false accounting, which I did because I thought that was a lesser charge and, you know, there was less chance of me going to prison.

Ms Kennedy: What did the local community do for you before your sentencing hearing?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Most of them were very – you know, were very supportive. They came in and asked what they could do. A lot of them wrote letters on my behalf. A few of them I was completely cut off from. One crossed the road to avoid having to talk to me. I had to stop walking my dog down the local woods because there was quite a large travelling community down there and I got such a lot of abuse from them, so I had to stop going down there.

But I had to sell the local newspaper with my face all over the front page. So, yes, on the whole people were – people were supportive because it’s a small village, you know. I got to know everybody and all the rest of it, and I felt awful that the Post Office was closed and I felt it was my fault, although I knew I hadn’t taken the money.

Ms Kennedy: When you went to your sentencing hearing, what did you bring to court with you?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: My lawyer, told me to pack a bag. Our daughter at that time was pregnant with our first grandchild, which I couldn’t enjoy the pregnancy because I was just convinced she would finish up with me in jail. And the day I was sentenced she gave – she was in labour and gave birth to our granddaughter. I felt that was taken away from me because I just couldn’t enjoy her pregnancy, so – but, yes, sorry, what was – have I – have I strayed here? I can’t – what was your original question?

Ms Kennedy: No, no. My next question is, what were you sentenced to? Do you remember your sentence?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, I was sentenced to 180 hours of unpaid work. I was allotted a probation officer. I had two meetings. I had to go to the probation office, which was in Tonbridge, and there I had to attend there twice. I had to sit in a room full of other young – well, not other young people but a lot of young people while we watched a video of how to climb a ladder safely. I was eventually given my 180 hours down in the next village, which is almost a small town in one of the charity shops.

Ms Kennedy: What did the judge say to you at your sentencing hearing?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: The judge was very kind. He summed it up by saying that he realised I was in a dark place and finished by saying to, “Go and enjoy your first grandchild”.

Ms Kennedy: How did you feel that day?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Oh, quite ill actually. I mean, pack a bag. What do you pack? What do you pack? I was just – and I was worried about the effect it was having on my husband, yes, yeah, it was – it was not a good time.

Ms Kennedy: I’m now going to ask you some questions about the impact that this has had on you. Turning, first, to the financial impact, what financial impact did all of this have on you?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, a huge deal because I was the only one earning. We finished up we were renting privately a bungalow in the village from a doctor and eventually we had to be evicted because we just couldn’t pay the full rent. We had to claim housing benefit, which we’ve never, ever claimed before and, yes, it had a huge impact on us.

Ms Kennedy: What employment were you able to get subsequently after your conviction?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: I didn’t have any proper employment. One of my ex-customers was going back to work three days a week and she knew I was really good with dogs, so she asked would I look after her dog for her. And then kind of just by word of mouth with different friends, et cetera, so I finished up walking dogs.

Ms Kennedy: And how are you now financially?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Not – not great at all, especially since my husband has passed away. I mean, that is – that is my sole income. I help out in the shop, the local shop, which is actually attached to a Post Office. I hadn’t actually – I introduced myself to the postmistress when I took over because it’s two adjoining villages and – but I’d never met her, and she – she heard that there was a house coming up in the same – * [… redacted …] and she heard that one was coming up for rent, and I came down to look at it and my cousin very kindly paid the deposit and six months’ rent for us, so we were able to move in in here, and that’s where – that’s where I’ve been for the last ten years now.

Ms Kennedy: What impact did all of this have on your social life?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Didn’t have one. No, I didn’t really have one at all.

Ms Kennedy: Sorry, just to be clear, you didn’t have one afterwards. What was your social life like before?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, we had people round for dinner. You know, went to people’s house for dinner. We never – we were never one for, you know, going out to pictures or anything like that, it was, you know, we enjoyed nice food. That was kind of, you know, most of our entertaining, et cetera.

Ms Kennedy: And what about afterwards?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, no, because I couldn’t really afford anything. Any time I went through to my daughter she always came through to pick me up, you know, because money was very tight. As I say, just apart from the dogs that was it. My husband he helped deliver papers in the – in the village. That was – that was what he did to kind of help out.

Ms Kennedy: And what impact did this have on your mental health?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, a friend made me go – she found me standing in the shop and – because I kept – I did keep the shop side open because that was the only way I had of – you know, people relied on the newspapers, et cetera. I just sold newspapers, greeting cards and stationery, and she kind of found me in the shop one day and I was just standing there shaking. So she made me make an appointment with my doctor, which I did, and he put me on antidepressants, which helped a bit. I’m still on them and I’ll probably be on them, I don’t know, for the rest of my days, on a lower dose but I still – still need them.

Ms Kennedy: What impact did all of this have on your husband?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It had a big impact. He was – he was very strong for me when I needed him at the beginning. He worried terribly. He used to take the front door keys and sleep with them under his pillow because he didn’t know if I would still be there in the morning, and he just became very, very frightened of authority. You know, any – any letters that came through, he would panic. He finished up in intensive care with heart failure and pneumonia and then for the next five years he was in and out of hospital a lot. Three times I was told not to expect him to pull through, which meant that I became stronger because I had to be strong for him and that kind of, you know, helped me get through it all.

Ms Kennedy: And what about your marriage and the impact all of this had on your relationship with your husband?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: It’s – well, it did affect him because, you know, he couldn’t understand how it had all happened and everything, and, you know, why hadn’t I told him. And, you know, it just was – money was just such a constant worry the whole time and, yes, so it did have a – it did have quite an effect.

But then, as I say, he was – he was just – he was just in and out of hospital for about five years, bleed in the brain, and then he was in intensive care for six weeks with the sepsis and – so he was never – he was never the same. He was never the same.

Ms Kennedy: And what about your children, you have previously mentioned your daughter, did this have an impact on them?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Oh, yes, yes. I mean, my son – my son felt helpless because he was in Sydney. As I say, I didn’t tell my daughter but she sensed there was something wrong and just suddenly appeared in the Post Office when it was – not – when after this had happened but I was still had the shop and she had got – they had got married in Menorca. We didn’t – we didn’t pay for anything. They even paid for our flight and our accommodation because, you know, we didn’t have a lot of money behind us at that time, and I didn’t realise but she had to prove that they had paid for the wedding and that her parents-in-law had paid for the meal and everything. She had to prove that as part of – as part of the case.

So, yes, it did – it did – you know, because, I mean, she was pregnant at the time when all this was going on. So, yes, it did – and my son felt very angry because there was nothing he could do over in Australia.

Ms Kennedy: What would you like from the Post Office now?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Well, I don’t – I don’t want an apology because I’ve had a paste copied not even signed apology. I really would like somebody to be held responsible. Paula Vennells was in charge when it happened to me. Every letter I got – and every letter I got arrived on Saturday morning when I could do nothing about it, as far as the lawyer was concerned, until the Monday and I just had to worry about it all weekend. Every single time, it was a Saturday any, you know, court summons or I got demands for the – for the outstanding money for up to three years after it had happened asking me how I was going to pay it back, et cetera, et cetera. And I just, you know – and, as I say, I was told I was the only one and they knew – you know, even my barrister had found there was quite a few cases in this area. He said, “You’re not the only one”, but I was told that and I believed it.

And I just – I just feel that nobody’s been actually held responsible. Nobody’s held their hands up and said, “We got it wrong”. Everybody’s just been moved to one side, given another job or whatever, and, yes, they went on and on and on and prosecuted all these people. It’s just not right.

Ms Kennedy: Is there anything else you would like to say to the Chair?

Mrs Pauline Thomson: No, I think that’s about – that’s about summed it up. But I, as I say, thought I was totally on my own until I got a letter from Alan Bates from the Justice of Subpostmasters two years – yeah, in 2010, and he’d read about my case somewhere and, you know, offered support, and that was the first time I realised that there were other people out there that were going through the same thing, and he’s done such a lot of good work.

I just feel, you know, it’s taken – nobody knew about it until it started being in the press. You know, the general public didn’t – didn’t know about it at all. They’d no idea, no idea that this was all – this was all going on, and I just think it’s just – I wouldn’t – it’s ruined a lot of people’s lives. I wouldn’t let – I wouldn’t give them the satisfaction of saying that it’s ruined my life because I’m the person that I am, but it’s – yes, it’s just – it’s just been a dreadful, dreadful experience.

Ms Kennedy: I’m just going to now turn to the Chair to see if he has any questions.

Sir Wyn Williams: No, thank you, Mrs Thomson. Ms Kennedy has asked all the questions that I wanted asked, so thank you very, very much for coming to give evidence. It’s been very nice to meet you.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Thank you.

Sir Wyn Williams: I’m glad we had an informal chat at the beginning.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: Yes, that was nice.

Sir Wyn Williams: So, again, thanks very much.

Mrs Pauline Thomson: You’re welcome. Thank you for the opportunity.

Ms Kennedy: Chair, our next witness is Mr Timothy Burgess. He is also appearing remotely so, to enable that to be set up, I would propose we take another 10-minute break and come back at 11.20.

Sir Wyn Williams: Yes, that’s fine, Ms Kennedy, thanks.

(11.11 am)

(A short break)

(11.23 am)

Sir Wyn Williams: It’s not very often we have unexplained breaks but there does seem to be a slight delay at the moment.

Ms Kennedy: Hello, Chair. I think we’re ready to resume.

Sir Wyn Williams: It’s all right, I’ve now got into the habit of having a quick chat with the witness in your absence. Don’t worry about it.

Ms Kennedy: Well, then you know that our next witness is Mr Timothy Burgess.

Mr Timothy Burgess

MR TIMOTHY BURGESS (affirmed).

Questioned by Ms Kennedy

Ms Kennedy: As I think you know, my name is Ruth Kennedy and I ask questions on behalf of the Chair. Have you got a copy of your witness statement there with you?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I have, Ruth, yes.

Ms Kennedy: It should be dated 14 January 2022; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It is, correct, yes.

Ms Kennedy: And if you turn to page 17 of the statement, the last page, is that your signature there?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It is, yes.

Ms Kennedy: Have you read through this statement recently?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yes, I have.

Ms Kennedy: And is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It is, yes.

Ms Kennedy: I’m going to start by asking a few introductory questions about you. How old are you now?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I’m 53.

Ms Kennedy: And who did you start working for when you were 19?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I started working for the Royal Air Force. I joined the Royal Air Force Regiment.

Ms Kennedy: You say in your statement that while you were there you met your wife; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: That’s correct, yeah.

Ms Kennedy: How long ago was that?

Mr Timothy Burgess: That was 1991 but we sort of didn’t start courting until 1992.

Ms Kennedy: And how many children do you have?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I have two, a girl and a boy.

Ms Kennedy: And you mention in your statement that you moved around with the RAF; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I was primarily based at Catterick but we did a lot of detachments, Belize, Cyprus, the Gulf War, first Gulf War, yeah, but I was really based here but we actually did a lot of detachments abroad.

Ms Kennedy: And you mention you moved to Manchester at one stage but then you moved back to Catterick; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, when I got out of the RAF me and Claire travelled. We lived on a kibbutz for a while and Claire fell pregnant with our first child, Hannah. So we had to leave. We decided to settle in Manchester for a while, but didn’t like it over there, she didn’t want to bring kids up round there, it was a bit sort of rough in parts. So we moved back to Catterick area in 1995.

Ms Kennedy: Around that time I think you did a degree in engineering; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, it was HND actually, I couldn’t afford to do a degree by the time I started I had two kids under two. So, yeah, I could only afford to do – well, I did the HND because it was a year less. Got work straight away.

Ms Kennedy: And what job was that that you did straight afterwards?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Site engineer. The company is primarily based in the dirty water industry, so we did a lot of tunnel shafts, open cut pipe laying, reinforced concrete structures, that kind of thing.

Ms Kennedy: Why did you decide to leave that job and become a subpostmaster?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Well, Claire had got breast cancer in sort of 2004 and Jake, my son, he’s autistic, he’s quite severely autistic, and it was just getting more and more difficult for Claire to handle by herself, so we decided it was the best time – I was working away, you see, I was never at home apart from the weekends and it was tough on Claire, so we decided to sort of have a career change. Claire, she was asking for NAAFI Financial at the time and she sort of devoted herself to that and I became a postman.

Ms Kennedy: How long were you a postman for?

Mr Timothy Burgess: About 18 months. But it suited us, it suited our situation. I’d be out early or I’d be there to get the kids off the bus from school. Claire would obviously get them ready in the morning. So it was quite a good little situation for us work-wise.

Ms Kennedy: How did you hear about the Post Office being for sale?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Just – just off chance Claire went in one day just as we were passing for stamps or something and got talking to Judy, the previous incumbent, and she said it had been on the market for about 18 months but they’d had no interest. And Claire had babysat for Dave and Judy years previously and knew the house and really liked the house, so – very, very quirky and quite old in parts. So we sort of decided there and then that we’d try and become the new – well, me try to become the new subpostmaster.

Ms Kennedy: And why did you want to work for the Post Office specifically?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Again, it was – it would have been an ideal situation – well, it was an ideal situation for us. I didn’t opened the doors until 9 o’clock, so again I could get Jake on his bus to take him to his school. I was there. The bus used to stop outside the Post Office and he’d get escorted and it was just a really good situation, plus we’d had a nice house as well. So it was – it was just a bit of a win-win kind of thing.

Ms Kennedy: You’ve mentioned the house. Can you just explain for the Chair where the Post Office was in relation to the house or what the setup was?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It was basically the front room of the house. So you’d walk from the hallway straight into the – well, unlock the door and you’d be straight into the Post Office straight behind the counter. The counter was just in front of you just as you walk through the door.

Ms Kennedy: And the branch that you bought was the Catterick village branch; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: And it was around June 2006 that you bought that; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: Can you just describe what training you received when you started as subpostmaster?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, I had two weeks at a Crown office in Durham. I think there was about five or six of us. And, yeah, just basically learning how to use the Horizon. There was a lot of emphasis on sales, trying to sell like Post Office financial products, as I remember, credit cards and the insurance products. You’d obviously go through all the various mail transactions that you were likely to come across. Yeah, yes, just like ten days basically.

Ms Kennedy: And what did you think of the training you received? Did you think it was adequate?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Not really, no. It was only when I started actually in the branch that you realised that, you know, there’s that many different transactions you could do, and I actually remember one day I didn’t know how to do a mail one and Judy, the previous postmistress, lived next door and she said, “If you ever get stuck, come and give us a knock”. And so I did and she didn’t know how to do it, and she’d been the postmistress for like 20 years, so it just – yeah, so I obviously had to ring the helpline and get a bit of help on that.

Ms Kennedy: Can you just describe when you started noticing shortfalls on the system?

Mr Timothy Burgess: The first day. The very first day we had I think £130 we were down and I had a trainer with me at the time and he couldn’t explain where it had gone, so he just told me to settle that centrally and it would get sorted out later.

Ms Kennedy: I think you’ve mentioned the helpline. Can you describe your experience of the helpline?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, they weren’t very helpful to be quite honest. A lot of the time, you know, you’d be on the phone to them for 20 minutes trying to explain what your problem was and in the end they’d just tell you to settle it centrally, which you’d do, and then like a month later it would come back and greet you on the morning as you logged into your account you’d have a transaction correction, and you’d go in and you owe the Post Office X amount of pounds.

But that seemed to be the answer to quite a few things, and either that or they just didn’t know they just didn’t know – they just didn’t have the experience to help you. They didn’t know the system well enough.

Ms Kennedy: And you mention in your statement that you put money into the Post Office to balance out the alleged shortfalls. Where did you get that money from?

Mr Timothy Burgess: We were running a café at the time, so we’d put little bits in from a café. We also run a pub in 2000 – November 2007 to January 2009, and when we left we got money back for the fixtures and fittings, and I think we put about £4,000 in at that particular time. It was – that was early 2009 but they just kept escalating from there, it just – I was always, always, always had a shortfall pretty much most of the time it felt like.

Ms Kennedy: And you were audited I think around 1 July 2010; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: About round then, yeah. I think, yeah. We were going to upgrade to the new Horizon system, and this was the first audit I’d had since – since I moved in. So in the first – in four years I’d not had any audits.

And the lady doing the audit that particular day had been my business development manager, my area manager, a lady called Lesley. Yeah, she came to do the first audit and found out there was a loss and the days after she – her and her colleague did a full audit.

Ms Kennedy: Was it just one auditor in –

Mr Timothy Burgess: It was on the Wednesday, yeah, just to transition me to the new Horizon system, but obviously when it became – when she became aware there was a shortfall the day after she called in a colleague and the two of them spent the day in the Post Office auditing.

Ms Kennedy: I think you mention in your statement that that first night the auditor did something after they left. What was that?

Mr Timothy Burgess: They left the safe open because they were there that late the safe locks itself out after a certain time and they’d not – they didn’t have the handle in the right position so they couldn’t lock the safe that night. But what they did, they changed the alarm code, so I didn’t know the alarm code. But the safe was open all night and there was about £25,000 or something in there.

Ms Kennedy: What did changing the alarm code mean?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It means I couldn’t – I couldn’t go back into the Post Office without the alarm going off.

Ms Kennedy: The next day you mentioned they came back, and what shortfall did they tell you there was?

Mr Timothy Burgess: About £7,500.

Ms Kennedy: At that point I think you say you sought advice from the National Federation of SubPostmasters; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: That’s correct, yeah. Yeah, the area rep came to visit.

Ms Kennedy: And how – what did they advise you to do?

Mr Timothy Burgess: To resign before – jump before I was pushed basically, and they also said that they’d try and get someone to run the branch or to run the branch just to – just to keep it open, but I think when it was put out to tender no-one was interested in it, which I found a bit surprising because it was a busy office.

Ms Kennedy: You were then suspended and then resigned shortly afterwards; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yes.

Ms Kennedy: How did you feel at that time?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Terrible. I didn’t know why – why I was having losses so much. I mean, I don’t consider myself to be stupid by any means but I just couldn’t explain where all the money was going and I’d be in there until like 8/9 o’clock at night trying to – you know, going back through that day’s paperwork and that day’s transactions just to see if you could see, but you never could. I could never find anything, it would be like, “Oh right, that’s where it might have been or that’s where it might have gone”, just banging your head against a brick wall. So in the end I just sort of stopped doing that and just buried my heard in the sand a bit and started hiding the losses basically.

Ms Kennedy: You were interviewed under caution in November 2010; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: That’s right, yeah, at Richmond police station, yeah.

Ms Kennedy: And what representation did you have with you then?

Mr Timothy Burgess: None. No, it was just me and the two investigators.

Ms Kennedy: How did you feel you were treated?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I don’t know why we had to have the interview at Richmond police station. I thought that was a bit of a – like an intimidation sort of tactic. But other than that, yeah, it was they asked me questions and I sort of answered them. I wanted the whole thing – at that time I wanted the whole thing just to be over and in my naiveté I never expected them to then subsequently charge me with theft.

Ms Kennedy: After the interview, what happened?

Mr Timothy Burgess: The interviewer – investigators followed me home, they took whatever bit of paperwork that I had, had a look round the house just to make sure there was no obvious signs of theft, I suppose. I don’t know what they were looking for but they had a good look round the house and, like I say, took away what paperwork I had.

Ms Kennedy: Then in 2011 the Post Office sought to prosecute you for theft and false accounting; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It was just theft at the time.

Ms Kennedy: Was it just theft? And what did you plead to that?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Not guilty.

Ms Kennedy: I think you say in your statement that initially you were appearing before the Magistrates’ Court but that then changed to the Crown Court; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: That’s right, yeah. I went to Northallerton Magistrates and the Post Office were still pressing for a theft charge, so the magistrate there had to pass it up to Crown Court.

Ms Kennedy: What did the judge in the Crown Court say about that?

Mr Timothy Burgess: He said it should have been settled at Magistrates’ Court. By that time, the Post Office had accepted my false accounting or my – yeah, I pleaded guilty to false accounting and, yeah, the judge at the Crown Court said this should have been settled at Magistrates’.

Ms Kennedy: What were you sentenced to?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I did 120 hours community service and I had – I think I paid £500 court costs.

Ms Kennedy: And your conviction was quashed last year; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, that’s correct.

Ms Kennedy: I’m now going to ask you some questions about the impact that this has had on you. I think you’ve already mentioned you used some money that you were repaid from the lease of a pub; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: That’s correct.

Ms Kennedy: And you also borrowed money from your family; is that right?

Mr Timothy Burgess: From my father-in-law. By the time the case got to Crown Court I’d arranged with the Post Office to pay the £7,500 off at £1,000 a month and my father-in-law was giving me that. He has a lot of – well, yeah, he was giving us that. So by the time it got to Crown Court I think I only had about 1,000/£1,500 left to pay. So, yeah, that’s – that was the initial sort of borrow off my father-in-law and we’ve been lending off him ever since.

Ms Kennedy: What jobs did you take after yours suspension?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Just labouring jobs really, just cash-in-hand work, day here, day there, a couple of days whatever. We were running the café as well, so – but it wasn’t sort of busy enough at the time, so I needed to work as well, but that was the only sort of work I could see myself getting.

Ms Kennedy: And what was the impact on that on your household earnings?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Oh, they dropped dramatically. We went into interest only on the mortgage for – I think we had two periods of that. The bank were quite good actually. That was for six months at a time, so that sort of helped us get back on our feet. Not back on our feet but it made us – the mortgage considerably less than it was.

Ms Kennedy: You mention in your statement that you were invited for an interview as an area manager of a company. Do you want to tell the Chair about that?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yes, it was – basically it was nailed on, it was an informal chat, I’d known the lad who was supposed to be interviewing me from a previous job I’d done. So, yeah, it was just a chat with him – him and his boss, sorry, and then basically, like I say, the job was mine. It was only when I filled in my personal details and declared that I had a false accounting conviction that the offer was withdrawn immediately.

Ms Kennedy: How did that feel?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Oh, I was gutted. Absolutely gutted. Yeah, that would have been – it would have been ideal. I mean, it was – again, I could be based at home for some of the time, so would have sorted out – it would have been good for our Jake. But, yeah, it was just, yeah – and that sort of – it didn’t spiral me into depression but I thought I’m never going to get a meanwhile – a worthwhile job in the industry again. It put me off. Put me off applying for other positions.

Ms Kennedy: What was the impact on your mortgage of your conviction?

Mr Timothy Burgess: We nearly got the house – yeah, we missed three mortgage payments and were sat at the kitchen table one day and got a knock at the door, and a fella just didn’t even speak, just handed me an envelope and it was from the bank saying that we’re going to foreclose on the mortgage. So, yeah, I had that to – and then obviously I had to get in touch with the bank. Again, they were quite good, we managed to pay that off with my father-in-law’s help. But, yeah, it was – it was a bit sort of touch and go for a while whether we’d get to keep the house.

Ms Kennedy: How are you now financially?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Oh, better off now, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I’m working for a construction firm just as a labourer but that was regular employment, five days a week, the café’s not doing so bad. So at the moment we’re not too bad.

Ms Kennedy: And you say in your statement that this has changed you as a person. Could you just explain what you mean by that?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, I used to be sort outgoing, happy-go-lucky I suppose, you know, always up for a bit of a laugh but just became more and more introverted, didn’t like going out. I had various sort of accusations levelled at me so it just affects your confidence, so in the end, yeah, I just stopped going out.

Ms Kennedy: On your life in the community, could you just tell the Chair what press coverage your case received?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, it was in the – it was in the Northern Echo, it was a half-page spread, “Subpostmaster charged with false accounting” and a picture of me leaving the courthouse. So no-one was in any doubt.

Ms Kennedy: What impact did that have on your reputation in the village?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Oh, it ruined it. It crushed it overnight. Like I say, Claire’s dad had run the pub for 20 years, one of the busiest pubs in the village, so he – you know he had a lot of goodwill from people. But, yeah, that obviously with his association with me and, yeah, it just got sort of the tarred overnight.

Ms Kennedy: How did people treat you?

Mr Timothy Burgess: People ignored me, people crossed the street, you’d say, “Hello” to people and they’d just outright ignore you but like in a hostile sort of – yeah, just – yeah, people were hostile. It killed the village, I had that levelled at me a couple of times.

Ms Kennedy: Turning then to your family. What was the impact of this on your daughter?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Sorry.

Ms Kennedy: It’s okay. Let me know if you need a moment.

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, our relationship deteriorated quite a bit. She’d gone to Ripon Grammar to do her sixth form because she thought – it’s 30 miles away, so she thought that would be far enough away for people not to know about it, but it wasn’t. So as it was, she met someone in the year above who were going to go Liverpool to do their degree once they’d finished sixth form, so Hannah sort of tag along – tagged along with them. Obviously that had the effect that she had to start her sixth form again so she was like a year behind. But – yeah, so Liverpool that was sort of far enough away for her not to be tainted.

Ms Kennedy: And how did that affect your relationship with her?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, it was – yeah, she didn’t like me for a while. Understandable. She was 15. Yeah, it was a – for a few years it was, yeah, it wasn’t very good. Excuse me.

Ms Kennedy: What was the impact on your wife?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Just the same as – yeah, just the same as all of us. She was working there – she had to leave her job, she was working for North Yorkshire County Council as a respite worker at the time taking – she had like three Down’s kids that she used to take out for swimming and McDonald’s, that sort of thing. But she was asked to leave that. That sort of – that wasn’t good for her. She really enjoyed it, plus it was another income. I mean, we’d work – she’d work in the café – she’d work in the café until 2.30 and then like go and do this on an afternoon for another three hours. Like I say, it did – it did help the finances and she enjoyed it. But, yes, like I say, she was asked to leave because she was with me.

Ms Kennedy: What impact did that have on your relationship with her?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Well, I don’t know. We have a very, very strong relationship. She’s my rock. Yeah, so it was … yeah, it was – we never got close to splitting up or anything like that because Claire knew I didn’t do anything. You know, she was there with me trying to – when we was going through the accounts on a night, you know, she was trying to help. She’d worked in a Post Office previously when it was just all paper. So, you know, it was just an extra – but we – the pair of us I said no – so she knew I hadn’t done anything. So, yeah, it – but, you know, I don’t know what she was thinking privately but, yeah, never – never expressed to me other than support.

Ms Kennedy: You’ve also mentioned your sister-in-law. What happened to her?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah, she wanted to buy the pet shop in the village, she’d been working there on a weekend, free of charge actually. She’d been working on a Saturday for nothing. She’s been a civil servant and was taking voluntary redundancy I think, so wanted to buy the pet shop, but the chap who owned it at the time said he didn’t want to sell it to her because he – because of her association with me he thinks people would stop using it and it wouldn’t have been a going concern for her. So he sort of withdrew the offer to sell it to her, which devastated her because she had her heart set on it, you know, and it was down to me that her dream – well, not dreams but – yeah, dream scuppered if you like. Excuse me.

Ms Kennedy: What about your relationship with your sister?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah. Well, my sister, yeah, that was – yeah, she – she thought I was guilty. Yeah, she sort of – I’ve not had the best relationship with my sister for a lot of years. Yeah, she thought, yeah, obviously no smoke without fire. I was working for one of the most trusted organisations in the country. It had to be – you know, it had to be me. Yeah, subsequently we’ve sort of made up and what have you but, yeah, at the time, yeah, she … yeah, she thought I was guilty of something.

Ms Kennedy: What about your mother?

Mr Timothy Burgess: Yeah. Again, my Mam she died in 2011 so didn’t actually get to see – she obviously sort of supported me but, again, she was living in Manchester, I live over here. The rest of my family live there, so whether they were talking – I don’t know, I don’t know. But, yeah, she died without really – well, without knowing that I’d not actually done anything.

Ms Kennedy: How does that make you feel?

Mr Timothy Burgess: It’s sad, yeah – really sad, yeah. I had a good – a really good relationship with my Mam and, yeah, for her to think that I’d robbed from the Post Office, you know, that’s, yeah – she took that to the grave.

Ms Kennedy: What would you like from the Post Office now?

Mr Timothy Burgess: I’d like whoever knew about the Horizon system not being robust enough and anybody who sort of covered up the fact that I wasn’t the only – at the time, I understood that I was the only person this had happened to. You know, they isolate you. They make you feel like, you know, your – it’s only you this has happened to. The investigators never mentioned anything, nor the auditors never said, “Oh, we’re doing one of” – you know, it was just – whoever knew I think they should be up before you and there’s people who probably need to go to jail for what they’ve done.

Ms Kennedy: Is there anything else you would like to say to the Chair?

Mr Timothy Burgess: No, no, thank you.

Ms Kennedy: I’m just going to turn to the Chair now to see if he has any questions for you.

Chair, do you have any questions?

Sir Wyn Williams: No, I don’t, thank you very much, Mr Burgess. Ms Kennedy has asked all the questions that I would have wanted to ask you, and it just remains for me to thank you for coming to explain to me what are obviously distressing personal circumstances and I’m very grateful to you for doing it. Thank you.

Mr Timothy Burgess: Thank you.

Ms Kennedy: Chair, our next witness who is giving evidence in person was going to be the last person today. It’s Oyeteju Adedayo but we propose a 15-minute break now to get that set up. So we would come back at 12.05.

Sir Wyn Williams: Yes, that’s fine. Thank you very much.

(11.48 am)

(A short break)

(12.08 pm)

Ms Hodge: Our next witness is Oyeteju Adedayo.

Sir Wyn Williams: Thank you.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo

MRS OYETEJU ADEDAYO (sworn).

Questioned by Ms Hodge

Ms Hodge: My name is Catriona Hodge, as you know, and I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry.

Please can you state your full name.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: My name is Oyeteju Adedayo.

Ms Hodge: You made a witness statement, Mrs Adedayo, on 4 February this year; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I did.

Ms Hodge: Do you have a copy of that statement before you?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I have.

Ms Hodge: Please could you turn to the final page. Do you see your signature there before you?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I have it.

Ms Hodge: When you made that statement on 4 February of this year, was the content true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Thank you. I’m going to begin by asking you just a few questions about your background, if I may. How old are you, Mrs Adedayo?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I’m 57.

Ms Hodge: Do you have any children?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I have three children.

Ms Hodge: How old are they now?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: The oldest is 29, the second one is 28, and the youngest is 25.

Ms Hodge: And do any of them still live with you?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: They live with me but they work away from home.

Ms Hodge: I’d like to ask you about the circumstances in which you came to work for the Post Office more than 20 years ago now.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Why did you decide to start running a Post Office branch?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: When the kids were younger I wanted to work around the children where I could have more access to looking after them, making sure everything is going very well with them with school, and I wanted to do some kind of work that I don’t have to seek permission before I can take them to school, bring them home, do homework with them because sometimes some jobs you have to probably work away from home or long hours. I wanted to fit the business around the children.

Ms Hodge: So were you attracted to being your own boss?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I was attracted to being my own boss.

Ms Hodge: Where did you live at the time you decided to work for the Post Office?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: We were living in Berkshire, in Slough, Berkshire, and we were – my husband and I we were looking at Post Offices, shops around the area. He wanted to do property and I said that might take me away from home and he’s working as well, who is going to look after the three children because they are very close together in age and I started looking.

Around the Berkshire area, we did see some properties but they were way out of our own reach financially, they were pretty expensive, and we started looking further afield, which is Kent, because I used to go to school in Sevenoaks, and I came back basically to Kent looking for shops via an agency. They are called Nationwide Agency and they sell businesses. So we started looking through them.

Ms Hodge: Where was the Post Office branch that you found?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I found one in Medway, which is Gillingham in Medway, and via the agency we were able to negotiate with the previous owner who were basically wanting to come out because I think her and her husband they wanted to travel a little bit, live a little bit. So they were happy to sell the business to us.

Ms Hodge: Was that the branch of Rainham Road?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: It is the branch of Rainham Road Post Office.

Ms Hodge: When did you take over the running of the branch?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I took over in 1999 and it was a lovely time because it was – I was the young entrepreneur, so full of life, full of looking forward to being part of the community, being – it was – it was beautiful that I was able to, you know, build something. I wanted to build something. I wanted to have good feel of the community and, yeah, that was what I was like at the time. I was full of life really.

Ms Hodge: What types of products did you sell in the new shop?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: We had the convenience store, which is everything, including off license, but we didn’t do the National Lottery or anything likely that. We just were a convenience store because in those days with the National Lottery you have to space out and unfortunately the previous vendor did not have it, so one of the things I wanted to build was that into the convenience store.

Ms Hodge: Where did you live when you started your business in Kent?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: We – when we came from Berkshire, we did not sell our property in Berkshire. We came into Kent because I wasn’t sure, it’s a new thing, I had this inspiration to build it, to – I was looking forward to a successful years, many years, and we didn’t sell the property because we said just in case if something happens and we cannot run it. We were not even looking at issues with Post Office but like if it got too tedious or the kids cannot do it we could go back home to Berkshire and sell it.

So we lived somewhere else. We rented a property pending the time we could, you know, just get the feel of what we are really getting ourselves into, so …

Ms Hodge: You’ve explained you took over the branch in May 1999. Do you recall when the Horizon system was first installed in your branch?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: It was installed in 2000.

Ms Hodge: Did you receive any training on Horizon?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I had some training in Maidstone. We went to like the branch office or the Crown Office in Maidstone and, if I remember, I’m not sure whether it’s a week or two days. I really cannot remember far back then. But we went in there and it was like a set-up where also it was a time when we had a date stamp, new date stamp. So they were showing us how to do the date stamp and also how to work on the Horizon. Majority of the time on the training, as far as I can remember, was to navigate and sell the products. There was no emphasis on balancing at the end of the week, and the whole idea was they wouldn’t aggregate it. They ask you for this product, you should know where to work through on the computer. There was no big emphasis on the balancing at all, apart from make sure that at the end of the day you do this and you print off the cash account report and send it off to Chesterfield. That’s all.

Ms Hodge: How did you learn how to balance your accounts?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I’m sorry, how did I?

Ms Hodge: How did you learn the process of balancing?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Well, when I first took over we were doing it through paper. Everything that we do is written down and you can go back and check everything. But when we had the Horizon I can’t say it was very helpful. It was just a case of go through your office in the week at the end of the week, which is the Wednesday. The office runs between Thursday to Wednesday. And the whole idea is at the end of Wednesday we have like a paperwork, which is called – we write out everything we have in the office. It’s a worksheet where you have all the declaration, which is like a stock take what you have done in the week you write it. What you have holding within the branch you write it in there.

When the branch closes, you go on to the computer and you input everything that you have in the branch on to the computer. At the end of putting it in, for instance, say – I’ll give a slight example the stamps are like a thousand but in the branch you are holding about maybe 500 or 400. You put that 400 in because that is legally what you are holding within the branch. If you are selling fish – fishing licence, anything that you have done, how many did you sell? The paperwork you put it on to the – then you put “submit” – you press the “submit”.

If it comes up with any shortages you go on – straight on to the network helpline. Sometimes they tell us to wait. On 99 per cent of the time – “Let me just go and have a chat with somebody”. 99 per cent of the time they come back and tell us that you have to accept it otherwise you can’t open the next day, which is the Thursday when the new week starts. But that is how we are doing it and that is what the Post Office asked us to do. That is how we’ve been told to do balancing. It was not something that I pluck out of my head or somebody, “We do it this way”. No, you must work with the worksheet, put it on the computer, print it off, sign it, and send it off. It’s the protocol, send it off to Chesterfield with all the dockets, with everything that you need to send that you have done in the previous week.

Ms Hodge: You’ve described experiencing a discrepancy between what you held physically in your stock and what was showing on the Horizon system. When did discrepancies first start emerging for you?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Oh, it started back in 2000. As soon as they installed it. It started back, if I remember, because I started putting money in. At that time it was like, okay, 50, 100, 200, I would call them, “You have to accept it”. Whenever I call network helpline, “Well, you have to accept that otherwise you can’t open the branch the next day”, and that to me is horror because people coming in on Thursday do want their money. They’re not concerned about what your Horizon or your computer is doing. When they come in to want to cash their giro, their pension credit, their Jobseeker’s Allowance, child benefit, we are the designated branch for them.

You have a FAD code that you have to give to whoever is interested in coming to receive money from your branch, and once they have got that if I turn them away and say, “I’m sorry, you can’t cash anything because I’m having a problem with this Horizon”, they don’t understand that and they would report me I think. They would definitely go straight on the phone and report me to DWP and say, “Well, we got this designated branch. Oh, she never pays us any money”. Every Wednesday that she’s having a problem, she would send us somewhere else.

And they were very upset – I think they would be upset about that because majority of the time they have – if they go to another branch they are going to have to take an ID to represent themselves to say who they are. Whereas if they come to me, I’ve been working with them, I know who they are, I know who Sandy is, I know who Joe is, I know everyone, so they don’t need to show me the ID. But to go to another branch, they would have been very upset because each time they will have to identify themselves before they cash in any money.

Ms Hodge: How did you resolve those initial shortfalls that you experienced in your accounts?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I just go straight out, go to my till outside, which is the convenience store I’m running, and take the money to put in the Post Office because at that time maybe we did something wrong, maybe we input wrongly. They’ve said to us, “Wait until next week”, that it could flag up next week, which is the Thursday to another Wednesday, it could flag up you could get a transaction correction notice and it might come back. So that is what I’ve been doing. I would go to the shop. And I was running down the shop like there’s no tomorrow because each time whatever I take from my shop is what I should really be taking to the cash and carry. But in order not to have any horrors or any problems, I’m giving it to the Post Office so that I can balance because if I don’t give it, we can’t balance and it means that I’ve got that over my head. It’s either I do not open the next day, truly, which is going to hurt the business, or I pay it. And majority of the time network helpline will say, “You have you to accept that. You have to accept that”. And I was paying it.

I mentioned it to my husband on occasions that – and he would say, “Oh, what do you need that money for?” “Oh, I’ll explain later. The balancing didn’t – it didn’t balance. The book didn’t balance. So I have to pay it”. So we kept – that’s what I was doing, running backwards forwards between the convenience store and the Post Office I was running.

Ms Hodge: You’ve described the experience in shortfalls of 50 or £60, sometimes several hundred pounds.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Did they at any point increase?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Oh, yes, they increased. There was one time when I think it was quite high. I had to – I really said I have to take out a loan against my property because if I don’t do it and I take the money from the shop it means we can’t go to cash and carry, or even if we go to cash and carry a big amount of the money is not there, which is what we have taken on this side of the shop, not Post Office.

So what I used to do is this particular time I borrowed against my property so that I can pay the Post Office.

Ms Hodge: Sorry, which property was that?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: The one in Slough because we have not sold at the time.

Ms Hodge: And was this in relation to a discrepancy of just over £20,000?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: No, oh, no. This was in relation to about I would say about 1,000 or so but it started building. Every time I do – we do the balancing it’s not the same figure as last week. It goes up. I couldn’t understand why that was going on. I looked at it. At some point I said, “What’s going on? Why is it that every time” – it’s almost like I have to work with shop and bring the money over to the Post Office. I said, “What’s going on here?”

And it kept building and building to about 20 grand, 5,000, 10,000, 11,000. I just couldn’t – I couldn’t – I couldn’t make that up at all with the money from the shop. I wasn’t earning that much in the shop side to put in the Post Office, and I looked at it but with horror in my heart, and I said, “I’m sure somebody will come in”, because we’ve been calling to helpline.

There was a time when I had like a power cut and we rebooted and rebooted for a long time. To be honest, this is a trusted brand, they put a computer here. Surely it would work. To think what was going on, we looked at each other. My assistant was an old-school lovely, lovely lady. She looked at – she looked at me and she said, “You know, they’re going to ask that of you”. I said, “Really? Why?” They were coming here and we will work together, we will try and look through every single document if we are doing anything wrong because, I don’t know, what have we done? We’ve done nothing. There’s no transaction correction. You have the odd transaction correction but not in the amount that we were talking about.

I couldn’t understand what was going on. Nobody has reported me. Every time they come in I couldn’t – if I’ve – if I’ve taken that kind of money I’m telling my Lord now I cannot open that Post Office. I will not be able to run it because it’s a big chunk of money and I would have had to turn away the pensioners, those who are on – receiving child benefit, those who are on Jobseeker’s Allowance, I would have to say to them, “Sorry, you can’t come to this branch”, and they would have definitely raised an eyebrow about that because this is a designated Post Office, why is it that we can’t cash our money?

I would have had to actually close because I was a one-position branch and I’ve never done half of what everyone else are doing. It’s only when we went to court I was listening to somebody what they were doing I said, “Oh, I was building my own Post Office, I was only on this salary”, so I was like a baby. So where would this huge amount of money come from?

Ms Hodge: If I’ve understood you correctly, what you are saying is that had you taken the amount of money that Horizon was showing was missing you wouldn’t have been able to service your clients?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: No, I would – I would have had to close the branch at least for months to get that kind of money back to run the branch.

Ms Hodge: What happened when the apparent shortfall on Horizon reached more than £20,000?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I called them all the time. When they – the week before they came I called the helpline. There is no day when you do balancing because Wednesday is a very important day. It’s almost like the stocktaking period of what you are holding, what you need to ask for most times more this, more that. So it’s like a stocktaking before you go on to the next week.

When that happened, I phoned up the helpline and I said – I’m like, “This is – this is getting ridiculous”, because 41,100 or 600 and something point 35, I mean, even if I’m going to steal 35p as well, it was really getting – I was getting worried. I was getting really worried. And they said, “Well, you have to accept it”. I said, “Okay, I will accept this but I need someone to look at this for me because this is not right. It’s too much. I don’t know what next week will bring up and I truly cannot afford this amount of money on the spot to pay back”.

Ms Hodge: Your branch was audited on 5 September 2005; is that correct?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, that’s correct.

Ms Hodge: You have described some men from the Post Office attending your branch on that day; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Can you describe how the audit was conducted, please.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I can. On the day – they came on the Monday. They came on the Monday. The previous weekend, which is a Saturday, I – before the auditing, the milkman, who had a local business to me, came in and said, “Look, we are tired of having to rush and pay before 12.30, even some of our customers are not ready to pay us, can you please – we love you here, can you please ask them if you can open a little bit longer so that we can come and deposit the money? We don’t want to take them home”.

That Saturday. Before that Saturday I did – long before I did ask the permission from the Post Office and I was told, “Yes, you can open but you have to lock the safe, which is the one that links to Romec, you have to lock it at 12.30 because if you have a robbery or anything, you’ll be liable. You must lock that”. But they provided me with two safes. One safe that we put every coins inside and it’s also locked, they said, “Use that one because it’s not, alarmed. Use that one”. Every single milkman that comes we have like a money bag, they have – they come in various colours and when they bring it we count the money, we count – they bring it with a slip, which is like a cheque – a paying in slip, kind of, and we have to input that on to the computer. But obviously the safe is locked. I wrap it round with a rubber band, I put it back in the money bag, I put it in the safe.

But for the following Monday – because it’s a Saturday – the following Monday my assistant and I, whoever worked on that Saturday doing that, the other one will come in to count the money together and put it into the safe. It is in the safe that is provided and it’s a locked safe provided by the Post Office but I’m supposed to count with my assistant or my assistant counts with me and we put it back in the – into the main safe because it is money, and then batch the slips that goes off to Chesterfield.

On the Monday when they came, I was dropping the children off at school. I came in at about 8.30 and I met my assistant outside sitting on the chair. So I said, “Oh, hello, have you locked yourself out?” She said “No”. She said, “We have people from the Post Office”. I said, “Oh, okay”. I said, “What are you doing – what are you sitting here for then? Shouldn’t you be in?” Because this is something we’ve been waiting for so that they can help us look for what is missing, because I told them “The Wednesday when we do the balancing that this is too much for me £41,000? I’ve been telling you every week and we haven’t seen any transaction notice to help us with this”.

So I – she said “No, they asked me to sit outside”. “Oh, okay”. So I went straight in to the Post Office. They said, “No, no, no, wait outside”. But one thing I noticed is they’ve cleared everything on the table in the Post Office. So I thought, okay, maybe the analysis or something because they have changed my keyboard before. So I thought maybe something – they’re going to change the computer or something. So I stood outside with my assistant talking.

When they came out, they said, “Oh, you are 50,000 adrift on the computer”. I said, “Well, I said Wednesday I don’t agree with that because I said Wednesday it was 41,600 and something and I made it known to the helpline that there’s something wrong with this and I need someone to help”. I said, “Are you here to help us so that we can go through? Because it’s only a small Post Office, it’s not huge, so this kind of money is a massive amount”, and they said “No, we’re not here to do that, we are plain clothes police officers”.

Oh, God. I was like, “Okay, all right, so where are all the things in the Post Office?” They said they’ve taken them all off, they’ve taken them away. I said, “For why? Why?” “Because 50,000 is missing and you need to tell us where the money is, what you have done with the money”. I said, “Hang on, hang on, there is milkman’s money in the side post – safe which I took on the Wednesday. I have not added those milkman’s money into the safe. Have you done anything with them? They said they will get back to me on that one. Okay.

“So what am I going to do?” They said, “Well you going to tell us” – and at that time my voice was going really up because I was really, like, “No, I didn’t take the money. I didn’t take any money”. They said, “Well, you tell us what has happened because it’s not here”. I said, “I haven’t taken – I’ve been talking about this discrepancy for weeks, for weeks and you have not done anything about it. Nobody has come to – I’ve never been audited since I took over the branch”. I said, “I’ve been telling you about these discrepancies”. I’ve been putting money when it was small but as it got bigger I could not afford that kind of money. And they said “No, I’m telling you now if you don’t come up with a story you’re going to be going to prison for two or three years”.

That was when I thought to myself, oh, police officer – plain clothes police officer I’m done here. I’m absolutely done here, done. I’m going to be put in prison. I’ve not done anything before in my life. I’ve never been in trouble with the police.

And the next thing they said to me – I think of my – some the customers were walking in and they were looking towards where we were talking outside the office and they said, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” So one of them turned to me and said, “Is there anywhere we can go to talk?” I said, “Yeah, we go upstairs and talk”. This is from 8.30. We didn’t go upstairs until about after 2.00, a little after 2.00, a tiny little after 2.00 I took them into the branch upstairs – into the flat upstairs. And they started cautioning and everything, and I thought the way – they were aggressive, absolutely aggressive towards me the way they were talking, “We are plain clothes police officers and this offence carries a lot of prison sentence”, and I was all I could think about was my three young children, like, “What? I’m going to go to prison for two/three years, a good two/three years out of the life of my children”. I couldn’t do that. I said, “No”.

So they asked me, “Oh, we are going to ask you all these questions”. They were pointing at – they brought me the – about three cash account reports that we printed and we sent to, what do you call it, Chesterfield and they said, “Is that your signature?” I said “Yes”. “Is that your signature?” I said, “Yes”. That was my false accounting because they were just saying that time, “This – this figure there it, did you – did you manipulate it or something?” How can I manipulate the figure? This – when we do balancing, which is what the Post Office told us to do, told me to do, write all that you have in the office, including cash, denomination, everything, put it on the computer. There is no dispute button on the computer, you submit, there’s a discrepancy you ask network helpline, “What do I do because I’ve got some discrepancies here?” They will tell you accept it. They were not – I think it was a call centre if you ask me – they were not doing anything about helping me to go through it.

Ms Hodge: Ms Adedayo, just to come back a bit, you have mentioned that you were asked questions by men you’ve described as plain clothes police officers. Did you understand them to be employees of the Post Office or police officers?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Police officers, like detectives or something, because they were – there were not wearing anything that is Post Office. So I believed what they said and they were in that – we were in that meeting and I was like – at some point I said to myself, “I have to tell some story here otherwise you will be going inside a police car with handcuffs”, because the way they were at me I thought I was going to prison that day, and I started telling the story like, “Oh, yes, some family and friends lent me the money and I had to pay them”, because they said, “Come up with story. We need the story where the money” – I didn’t – I’ve never had a brush with the authority before, never done anything wrong. If they ask me to toe the line, I toe the line. So I’ve never done anything for me to know how to answer what I should have said. So I started coming up with this story, “Oh, family and friend” – I didn’t have family and friend to borrow that kind of money from. My sister was young as well with young family. If she tells me she’s got 5,000 I will ask her, “Where did you get that from?” So there was no family and friends. I don’t have that kind of friends to borrow that kind of money from to start the business.

We had savings and we went to the bank to get loans against the business to buy the business. And when the time to buy our freehold we went to the bank and we got a mortgage to buy the business. We did – I did not collect any money from anybody. I did not borrow from anyone. I did not borrow from family and friends, I did not have anyone at that time who would even have that kind of money. We were young, young.

Ms Hodge: You’ve described your interview and being asked to come up with an explanation for where this money that appeared to be missing had gone.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Were you represented during your interview?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: No, no, because I didn’t think. When they said “Let’s go and talk somewhere”, I wish I’ve stayed in the shop because I think they were embarrassed by the people coming in, and I maybe would have been a little bit better, I don’t know. But I thought we were going – “Let’s go somewhere where we can have a chat”, because I was saying, “No, I don’t agree, I have not taken any money. We have not – my assistant” – she’s an old school. She would have – she would have had me. I said, “No, I didn’t take any money. There was no rep”. They had said something about a rep I can’t remember, I don’t know, but I said “No, we can – I don’t need anyone because I haven’t done anything. I haven’t stolen. I haven’t taken anything from here and I’ve never stolen in my life”. So I went with them to the flat – my flat upstairs to talk to them.

Ms Hodge: Were you alone with them when they asked you questions?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I was alone with them unfortunately.

Ms Hodge: What evidence did they produce of this alleged shortfall of £50,000?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Sorry?

Ms Hodge: What evidence – did they produce any to you –

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: No, the cash accounts, the report from the computer was the only thing they showed me, and they said – because on the front page we sign it and they said is that my signature. I said, “Yes, because that is how I’ve been trained, we must sign the document and send them off to Chesterfield”. That’s what I was doing.

Ms Hodge: Did you ask whether anyone else had experienced discrepancies?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I did. When we went downstairs and the argument was going backwards and forwards I turned around I said, “Has anyone else experienced this?” They turned around, they said, “Have you heard of it? Have you heard of it anywhere?” I said, “No”, which is true, “I didn’t hear anything about it”. They said, “Well, there you are, it’s peculiar to you”.

And that was when I thought, “In the whole of United Kingdom only me?” I didn’t know what to do. That was when I started inventing the story because if I’m the only one in the United Kingdom, who is going to listen to me?

Ms Hodge: I think you’ve explained that you told the men who interviewed you that you’d borrowed the money from family and friends; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I did.

Ms Hodge: And that was the explanation you provided for the shortfall that was showing?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: That was the explanation I provided when in the – when we were talking just a little after 2.00, and then I got so agitated, so all over the place and at 3 o’clock I looked at the time, I thought somebody has to go and get the kids from school. So I said to them, “Can I get someone to go and get my kids from school?” And they said, “Okay, we’ll give you five minutes’ break”. So I was back like a little after 3.00 to carry on.

But when I came back, I couldn’t remember what I was saying in the first – apart from the fact that I know I didn’t steal any money but I couldn’t remember the story I was telling them. So I said I was going to be repossessed also and I need the money. But I was not going to be repossessed at all because I’ve already – when the money flagged up for 41,600 and something I can’t remember exactly, I’ve already started the process, even way before, that if should it flag up any more money I’m going to have to pay it. I’ve already started the process of remortgaging so that I can put right the book, because again this was not a case of getting a loan, this is a remortgage situation because it’s a lot of money, as far as I’m concerned.

So I started that process. So I told them, “I’m going to be repossessed so, I’m sorry, that’s why I took the money because” – and then the man said, “You’ve changed your story. The story you said before was you borrowed from friends and family to” – I said, “Well, I didn’t do it. That’s why. But you told me to come up with a story”.

Ms Hodge: The Post Office terminated your contract on 5 September 2005 –

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, they did.

Ms Hodge: – that was the day that the audit was carried out?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: That was the day it was carried out.

Ms Hodge: Did you obtain any assistance from a lawyer after you had been interviewed?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes. I went to look for a lawyer because they said to me, “You’d better get yourself a lawyer because you’re going to go down for a very long time and we are going to make sure that you never work again”. It was awful. I don’t have a clue about the law.

Ms Hodge: What did your lawyer do?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: My lawyer looked at it. I told her – oh, she was young, she looked at it and she started writing – she asked me what happened and I said, “Look, I have not done this but, you know what, they said if I pay it back quickly, I will – it won’t go in the paper, nobody needs to know about it”. And all I wanted to do was carry on running my business. So my lawyer wrote to them and said, “Just because the computer said this and the money that is in the office is this doesn’t mean that theft has taken place. Can you give me a statement or some – you’ve taken all the paperwork and everything out of the office, can you tell us how the money or – what happened to the money? If you’ve looked in the paperwork, can you tell us how it has been taken? Can you give us some kind of statement to – just in case Mrs Adedayo is wrong in whatever she’s saying?” And they didn’t come back to him – to her about it. They didn’t come back until we went to Magistrates’ Court. The just looked at it and said, “I’m sorry, I have to transfer this to the Crown Court because the money involved is pretty high”.

Before that my lawyer said to me, “It is a very serious offence and you are all over the place, but – your disposition and everything, but I want you to know that this is a serious offence and you are better off pleading guilty to this because you can’t even explain how the money is missing in your branch”, and I said, “Okay, I will plead guilty to the offence”. The magistrate transferred us to Crown Court.

Ms Hodge: Before your case was transferred you’ve been charged with three counts of false accounting; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: And, as you said, you pleaded guilty to that charge on the advice of your barrister.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I did.

Ms Hodge: Do you recall when you entered your guilty plea in the Magistrates’ Court?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I think it was January the following year. I couldn’t remember.

Ms Hodge: 2006?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: 6, and we went in front of the Maidstone Crown Court judge in March.

Ms Hodge: So, as you’ve said, your case was transferred for the purposes of sentencing; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes –

Ms Hodge: Because you pleaded guilty?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: – because the amount.

Ms Hodge: Because the amount was – the amount of the alleged shortfall –

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Was pretty high.

Ms Hodge: Was high. When you were told your case was being transferred, what were you told you might face by way of sentence?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Prison sentence. They said I might go to prison for two or three years, that it carries a lot of prison terms because it’s a serious offence, and I was beside myself on that matter because I just couldn’t imagine going to prison, leaving my children who are under probably 12 at the time or so, 13/12, the three of them, and it was terrible, terrible.

Before I went to prison – before I went to Crown Court I said to the oldest – I took her round the house and I was showing her how to work the washing machine, and I got them an alarm clock, “Please get up – make sure you get up to go to school and make sure that you do your homework”. It was terrible, terrible, terrible to tell a young child … I’m sorry.

Ms Hodge: Please don’t apologise.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Okay.

Ms Hodge: Would you like to take a short break?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: No, no, no, I’m fine.

Ms Hodge: The judge at your sentencing hearing made some enquiries of the Post Office about the sums; is that correct?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: The judge asked them – because on the day of the sentencing they asked them to – they wanted confiscation order on that particular day. They wanted everything done and the judge wouldn’t have it. He said, “I’m going to set that aside but I want a statement”, because I was questioning the milkman’s money. I told my lawyer about that. I said the milkman’s money was in the safe. I don’t know what has happened to that and can they come back and say, “Yes, it’s been added on to what – the money”, otherwise I’m sure I’m liable for that as well because it was not added on to the main safe money when they took everything away. And my lawyer was writing backwards and forwards to them about, “Give me a statement”. For months or weeks they didn’t answer him – answer her.

My judge at the time, Judge Caddick, asked them the same thing to give him a statement of all the money – whatever they have found regarding the missing money, and they haven’t – they didn’t come back. They failed to give any statement to the judge.

And one of the things I said to the judge was the money for the milkman also and the 9,000 that I’ve been paying over my – over the period that I have been subpostmaster from the installation of Horizon I’ve been paying towards shortfalls.

And they didn’t come back with anything. But in my disclosure one of the things I found that they said there is lack of dishonesty, lack of dishonesty, and also bottom line they said in the paperwork that they put all my paperwork that they took from the office into a room and they didn’t touch it for months.

Ms Hodge: When you said that you saw something that – you said that there was lack of dishonesty. Where did you – how did you come to know that? Did you read it or did you hear that?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: The Post Office was made to – for the sake of CCRC to disclose what they have on everyone.

Ms Hodge: So this wasn’t at the time of the confiscation order –

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: That wasn’t at the time.

Ms Hodge: – this is later –

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I was just surprised that nobody told me that there was no – there was – because I knew I was innocent but nobody said anything. During all those years, since 2006 nobody told me anything.

Ms Hodge: At your sentencing hearing you received 50 weeks’ imprisonment; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I did.

Ms Hodge: Which was suspended for two years.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: For two years.

Ms Hodge: And a 12-month supervision order; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: And you were ordered to pay – forgive me, to carry out 200 hours of unpaid work.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: What were you told by your judge at your sentencing hearing as to why a custodial sentence had not been imposed on you?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: My judge said – my barrister must have put my case forward to them because I was really, really petrified of going to prison, I was worried, and the judge said because I’ve started the process of the remortgaging to pay back the Post Office and also because I have three very young children and I’ve never been in any trouble, so he’s going to let me go but I must pay the Post Office back.

Ms Hodge: Your conviction was ultimately overturned in May last year; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Before that, however, you’ve described the confiscation order being sought by the Post Office. That was after your conviction; is that correct?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: They came in on the 1st – to be honest, like I said, I don’t know the judiciary at all as such, but in March 2006 when they were in front of the judge they asked for that and he didn’t grant it. He said he would do it in May, or he wanted them to give him statements of how the money was missing. And I remember that when they came to me because they were going on at me so much and I didn’t know where the money is, they were showing me the cash account and everything, reports, and I said – they said, “Well, how did you take it? How did you take it?” I said, “Well, 20/20/10, 20/20/10”, because that’s the figure they gave me, 50,000. So I didn’t know where the money was. I didn’t take it. So I said that. And the judge said they should give him the order of – a statement more like a homework how the money was taken and the judge never got that.

Ms Hodge: But a confiscation was made?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: The confiscation order was made because they wanted that, and now I know the reason for that because when we were in the High Court and the QC asked them, “Why were you after confiscation order on the sub-postmasters?” They said so they can gain an access to their assets.

Ms Hodge: The amount of the confiscation order was £52,864; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Did you pay that amount?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I paid the amount.

Ms Hodge: How did you manage to do that?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I remortgaged my property.

Ms Hodge: How much do you think you paid to the Post Office in addition to the confiscation order to make good the shortfalls that were shown by Horizon?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I paid, I would say, about 9,000 because it would start with 100 and then 200. Every single week it never balanced. It’s almost like someone stood there just inputting more figures than we’ve ever had in the office, a tiny office for that matter, a very, very tiny office. So when it built up, when I see that, I paid. I stop paying it because I could not afford that. I stopped paying maybe when it started with three grand, four grand, five grand, and it was going up like that, and then all of a sudden it was 10 grand, 20. I can’t afford that. I couldn’t afford it and I stopped paying it. We were rolling over. We were rolling over.

Ms Hodge: Mrs Adedayo, I would like to ask you now about the effect that these events had upon you? Can you describe what the impact has been on your mental health.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yeah. It was awful because I became very, very, very angry. I became also – I didn’t want to talk to anyone. I didn’t want to see anyone. I didn’t want to talk to my husband. I could – the children only because they were so young. I would talk to them. When I go out to maybe church and come back, now, normally I’m full of bubbles, I would go up, “Oh, hello, girls, what are you doing?” I would stay in the kitchen crying. I’d keep – my oldest daughter has found me many occasions sitting downstairs crying or in the kitchen crying because I just – I didn’t know what to do. I was – I was having a nervous break down. I didn’t want to see anyone. The curtain in our house used to be like pulled in the middle. I didn’t want them to go near the curtains, I didn’t want to go out. I didn’t want to go out. They missed out on socialising as well because if anybody invites them – invited them to like birthday party I would find an excuse to say, “Oh, no, no, no, no, you can’t go to that one”, because I couldn’t face anyone. I couldn’t go to the school gates to meet them because I was too ashamed, so ashamed.

Ms Hodge: You described suffering weight loss at that time; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I did because … I couldn’t eat. I was worried. Everything I held so dear, all my plans, all my aspirations went down the drain, and I didn’t go shopping. I would go shopping at night. I couldn’t – I really couldn’t face people. I was worthless. I was rubbish. I would stand outside the shop or if I drive around in the area, people will stare at me. Some will actually physically stare you out almost like, “Scumbag, she stole the money”. I was – I was the pillar of the community. They all “Hello. Hello you. Hello”, and I’m like okay – I was like an agony aunt in my shop for them. They would come – everybody would be telling me all their stories, what help they want, what advice and this, and all of a sudden I’d been stealing, “This is the thief”, they wrote it on the wall “thief”.

Ms Hodge: Where was that written?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: It was written on the wall of the shop.

Ms Hodge: Was your conviction reported in the local press?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, it was. The day it was in the local press I went round where they put the papers, because I do papers and I have a paper round, I looked at the front page of the paper and I locked up and I went straight back to bed and cover myself up. I just stayed in bed. I just – I told the kids they are not going to school, “You’re not going to go school today, sorry”, because I just couldn’t face anyone. I didn’t – I couldn’t face anyone. I just went straight back to bed and I covered up in bed. I just put the duvet over my head and I wanted to die. I really did want to die. I really did.

The kids were very supportive. My other half too he would talk but I couldn’t hear him. I don’t want to hear because I’m not useful. If I die, it will be easier for all of you to go forward because the shame will stop with me, even though my daughter was pulled, in one of her trips, outside to the show that, “Your Mum robbed a bank. I heard your Mum robbed a bank”. And my daughter goes – I don’t know all these things she just said, “Well, sorry my Mum didn’t rob a bank”, and then she walked off. But she was upset. By the time she got home, she was absolutely upset about it. It was terrible. It was absolutely terrible, terrible period, very dark horrible, horrible period. I was a recluse.

When they repossessed my property eventually and they moved us into this village it was like, “Oh, thank God, I’m in a village where nobody knows me”, but let’s just keep it low profile, nobody knows my name. I started using a name that nobody knows so that they wouldn’t link me with the – with the atrocity. And I was – I didn’t take them to doctors for years not even – we’re not talking months. They will say anything, “No, we’re going to sort it out in the house”. When we moved and I wanted to open – register them – because they are getting a bit older and I wanted to register them at the surgery they’ve taken all our medical reports and put it in archive with Kent County Council because they’ve never seen us. They haven’t seen us, so they didn’t know whether we’re around or not because I couldn’t face all those things. I just couldn’t face them. It was awful.

Ms Hodge: You described your property being repossessed.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes.

Ms Hodge: You say in your statement that when your Post Office branch closed you fell into debt and into mortgage arrears; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Oh, yes, into massive, massive debt. It was just building because the shop wasn’t doing very well, people wouldn’t come, “The thief is in there. Well, she’s taken our bit, that’s it”. So they wouldn’t come. We had the light from morning until night you can tell what you have in the safe – in the till, nothing. So I had to make a decision like, what do we do?

Ms Hodge: Did you try to sell the branch?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: We tried to sell it. Nobody wanted it because it’s got everything to do with stealing. They didn’t think they could work with it and nobody wanted to touch it. You get the odd people coming. I don’t know whether to come and laugh or just to put a face to the thief. They looked at you and have hope, oh, maybe they will … they just walk away, “Oh, sorry, we’re not interested”. Just like when I was looking for employment, I was treated the same way.

Ms Hodge: You tried to find another work; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I tried to find other work. I got one and it was good they said, “Oh, she’s spoken of very well, and this is one to watch, you know, she’s really good”, and all that.

And then we got into the office after the training and I heard they are going to do an enhanced DBS on the newbies. So I sat there and I was like, “Oh, my God”, and I went – I thought to myself, “This is the time where you’ve got to go and tell them. You can’t wait for them to find out”. So I called my manager and I said, “Can I have a word? I’m sorry, I have a criminal record”. She said, “What happened?” I said … she said, “Let me go and talk to the accountant”, which is the director. And she went to the director, they called me and they said, “How far back did it happen?” I said it happened recently, Post Office, it was my business and I was running the business as well as the Post Office but money went missing.

And they said, “No, sorry you have to leave because it’s too – it’s just too risky. You are freshly in your conviction, so, I’m sorry, you can’t stay” and they escorted me off the premises. They called the security … they called the security man to escort me off the premises to my car, walked me to my car to make sure I got off the premises. And many more like that. The estate – the recruitment agency don’t want to engage with me. As soon as they do, they check, they don’t want to engage with me.

Ms Hodge: Your family were affected by what happened; is that right?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Very much? Yes.

Ms Hodge: You described your three children at school suffering bullying.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes. I moved the youngest from school because the things she would come home and say – she was so young and I was worried about her, so I moved her a little bit away from where we were before the school. And the older one was really getting into trouble at school because she could – she was angry, she was angry. She could see what was happening to me at home. Once bubbly mum has become somebody who is like don’t open that curtain very well, just leave it slightly, let’s lock the door, don’t go near the door, if anyone ever is knocking don’t open it. So, you know, it was terrible, absolutely – I felt for them because … they were lost in it all. They didn’t know what to do, how to help me, and I didn’t know how to help them. I didn’t know how to – because I was in a dark place. I’ve never done anything, not one record with the authority. If they say, “Line up over there”, I line up. “Jump”, I jump. That’s me. If it’s anything wrong I might ask later, “Why we all jumping?” But that’s what the protocol is I’ll do it.

So when all this was happening I couldn’t understand. I was – I was – I was upset, extremely sick, I was sick actually, I was actually physically sick, mentally sick, and I tried to be my – the mother the children wanted, the wife he wanted, but I couldn’t be because I sit there sometimes just staring. I’m looking at – it’s almost like everything I’ve ever worked for went down the pan overnight and I have not done anything, nothing, and that is the honest truth.

I worked for them. I never asked them, “Oh, if I open the Post Office until 3.30 on Saturday for them what remuneration am I” – I never all those things didn’t bother me, I just wanted to make a successful business. To me I was with a trusted brand. It’s got the logo of the Queen. That was my beauty, my parents used to tell me this story of the Queen because it was their time, and I thought to myself I didn’t go down the road to go and do a business with Mr Jones down the road or Mrs Whatever down the road, I went into this business because of the trusted brand, the logo was my pride and look what I’ve got out of it.

Ms Hodge: Looking back on what happened to you, your conviction 16 years ago now, how do you feel about the treatment the Post Office subjected you to?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: I think to them I’m a thief and I’m extremely upset with them because in – when they came out and said, oh, they were going to give everyone this interim payment because, you know what, we have done wrong, we want to learn from our mistakes, we want to move forward. I was, like, talking to my lawyer and said maybe, just maybe – I’ve often said it to quite a few of my colleagues, they can testify to it – maybe they did, something went wrong, maybe something went wrong and they could tell us what it is. Maybe we should give them the opportunity to explain because this is out of this world to actually look at the amount of – the number of people you prosecuted, why did it not occur to anybody to say, “Hang on a minute, this cannot be right. They came into our business, into our partnership, with no criminal record. They are walking out with criminal record. Let’s look at what we are doing”. I didn’t get that feel.

When they put up interim payment, I got a letter saying my case was not integral to the Horizon and I thought to myself, “Hang on a minute, we went to court”. The lady judge read out – because they have no evidence. They didn’t come with any evidence. They didn’t come back in 2006 to give the judge anything, and they are saying that we’re still – I’m still a criminal. The judge told them to let us move on with our lives and hope we can put all this behind us. But when it came to interim payment, he turned around to tell me that is my word. It might not be what they said, I don’t know, but my words looks like – their word to me look like the judge may have quashed it but you are still a criminal and you stole the money.

Ms Hodge: Are you saying that, notwithstanding your conviction being quashed, you’ve been refused any compensation?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes. They refused the interim payment.

Ms Hodge: What do you think the Post Office needs to do to put these things right now?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: These are real people and it’s not just us it affected. It affected our family, all the families. There’s nobody that can say this does not have like a domino effect into the family.

They need to come. I’m willing to hear what they’ve got to say. What happened? Who knows it? Who actually came up to say, “Hang on a minute, this computer is not what we think it is. Let’s do something about it. Let’s look at it. Let’s halt everything that we are doing and let’s do something about this. Get the engineers to look at it”. It’s a computer. Look at it. Look at what has gone wrong.

And stop the goalpost. They’ve got imaginary goalposts and they move it about to suit them whenever they want to and I’m not very happy about that because this is the time. There is time and place for everything. This is the time you can heal the people you have wronged. This is the time to stick together and come forward and say, “We are truly, truly sorry about what we did to you and your families”.

Ms Hodge: I’ve no further questions for you, Mrs Adedayo. Is there anything further you would like to say?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: No, nothing.

Ms Hodge: Chair, do you have any questions for the witness?

Sir Wyn Williams: I would like to ask Mrs Adedayo a little more about the refusal to grant her an interim payment.

Mrs Adedayo, I take it that this has happened quite recently, has it?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, I did. Sorry, sir.

Sir Wyn Williams: No, no, that’s fine. I take it that either you or your lawyers must have the letter which contains this refusal. Would you be prepared to send that letter to me, please, so that I can read it for myself?

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Yes, yes, I’m more than happy to send it to you, sir.

Sir Wyn Williams: Thank you very much. I’d like to see the terms of it.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Thank you, sir.

Sir Wyn Williams: And thank you, Mrs Adedayo, for being brave enough to come and describe all these events which have impacted upon you over the years. I’m very grateful to you.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Thank you so much, sir, for this platform. Thank you very much. I’m not – this is not my comfort zone but I thought today I have to come and I have to come and say my thing because it’s – it’s the mental issue is starting all over again with me and I just wanted it out for the sake of my children so that they will know that this is it, it’s out now.

And I just need someone to just stop them, stop them, stop what they are doing. The game they are playing right now to stop, stop. We are all getting old. We are all – we are not spring chickens anymore. We are old. The children were under 12. My oldest is now 29.

Sir Wyn Williams: All right.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Thank you, sir.

Sir Wyn Williams: Thank you again.

Mrs Oyeteju Adedayo: Thank you, sir.

Sir Wyn Williams: Ms Hodge, it’s about 1.20 now, I guess, so shall we start again at 2.20?

Ms Hodge: Yes, sir, thank you.

Sir Wyn Williams: Convey my apologies to Ms Sayer that she will be a little later than we anticipated, all right.

Ms Hodge: Will do, thank you.

Sir Wyn Williams: Thanks everybody.

(1.20 pm)

(Luncheon Adjournment)

(2.21 pm)

Ms Hodge: Good afternoon, sir. Our final witness for today is Siobhan Sayer.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer

MRS SIOBHAN SAYER (sworn).

Questioned by Ms Hodge

Ms Hodge: As you know, Ms Sayer, my name is Catriona Hodge and I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry.

Please can you state your full name?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it’s Mrs Siobhan Sayer.

Ms Hodge: Thank you, Mrs Sayer. You made a witness statement on 13 January of this year; is that correct?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: That’s correct.

Ms Hodge: Do you have a copy of that statement before you?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, I do.

Ms Hodge: Please could you turn to the final page of your statement on page 10.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Got it.

Ms Hodge: Can you see your signature at the bottom of that page?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, I can.

Ms Hodge: When you made that statement on 13 January, was the content true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it was.

Ms Hodge: I’m going to begin, Mrs Sayer, by asking you a few questions about your background, if I may.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, that’s fine.

Ms Hodge: How old are you now?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I’m 56.

Ms Hodge: Are you married?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I am.

Ms Hodge: For how long have you been married?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: 35 years.

Ms Hodge: Do you have any children?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I have four.

Ms Hodge: How old are your children now?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Now they are 32, 30, 25 and 14.

Ms Hodge: You are currently living with your husband and one of your four children; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I am, yes.

Ms Hodge: Until recently I believe you had worked as a teaching assistant; is that correct?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: That’s correct, yes, I had.

Ms Hodge: At the local high school; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: At the high school, yes.

Ms Hodge: For how long had you held that role?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Six years.

Ms Hodge: I’d like to ask you some questions about how you came to work for the Post Office as a subpostmistress?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, that’s fine.

Ms Hodge: Please can you explain the circumstances in which you came to acquire a branch?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: My husband and I ran a classic car restoration company and the garage site and Post Office that we purchased had the Post Office included in it. We wanted to expand our classic car restoration business into a bit larger site, and this site came up so we could all be under one umbrella. So we purchased the garage with the intent the classic car restoration company would join it there, but within that was the Post Office we agreed to take on.

Ms Hodge: Which part of the business were you responsible for?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Post Office and everyday running of the shop, petrol sales and things like that.

Ms Hodge: And your husband, what did he do?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Classic car – he was doing the classic car. So he was in the other garage on the site at the time.

Ms Hodge: Which branch of the Post Office was it?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Erpingham.

Ms Hodge: Do you recall when you became the subpostmistress of the branch?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: 2000, I think. 2001, 2000.

Ms Hodge: I think in your statement you mention a date of 6 January of 2000. Does that sound right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, that sounds right.

Ms Hodge: When was the Horizon system installed at your Post Office branch?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: It was installed before we purchased, about a year before.

Ms Hodge: And when –

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: So it was already in there when we bought the Post Office.

Ms Hodge: Did you receive any training on Horizon –

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No.

Ms Hodge: – when you were appointed?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No. I had four days – a trainer came into the Post Office and literally sat beside me, but there was no training as far as the Horizon system, it was just day-to-day stuff on Horizon.

Ms Hodge: Did you experience any problems using the Horizon system?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Not at that time.

Ms Hodge: Your branch was audited in January 2008; is that correct?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: That’s correct.

Ms Hodge: What was the outcome of that audit?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: There was a shortfall of I think it was 23,000, which was then changed to 18,000 by the Post Office. They came in and audited and then removed my keys.

Ms Hodge: When you say they, to whom are you referring?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Two auditors from the Post Office.

Ms Hodge: Were you present when the audit was carried out?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Can you describe how it was conducted?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Well, I was present but I was sent out of the office when it was done and felt I was being talked over rather than talked to. They weren’t really interested in any explanations, it was just getting those – those figures off and locking me out of the Post Office, really.

Ms Hodge: What happened after the alleged shortfall of about £18,500 was discovered?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: The keys were removed from me. I came home because I was in absolute shock. I wanted to just explain to someone what – you know, what was going on, and I then received a phone call the following day from Colin Price, one of the Post Office investigators, to say that they would want to now make an investigation.

Ms Hodge: What enquiries did they carry out?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: They came to the house. That was their first port of call was coming to my home address. Three of them arrived. There was Colin Price, Paul Dawkins and Jon Longman arrived at my door just saying that they wanted to have a chat about, you know – and try to see my point of view and my case and we were going to just have a chat through about it but, in fact, it turned to be a full investigation with recording equipment, which I was unaware of.

Ms Hodge: When you say there was recording equipment, are you referring to an interview?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes.

Ms Hodge: Before we come to your interview, you said your home was searched; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: That’s correct, yes.

Ms Hodge: Can you describe how the search was conducted, please.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: They came in, asked if they could search the property, which at the time I said there was no issue because I had nothing to hide. So they went through all my kitchen drawers, they went through filing cabinets, they went through all the bedrooms, they ended up in my bedroom tipping my underwear drawer upside down while joking about where I’d hidden the money, and it would make their job a lot easier if I could just say where the money was. I felt humiliated, scared to death. It was a horrific time, horrific.

Ms Hodge: Your youngest child was a baby at this point; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Six months. Yes, she was six months old.

Ms Hodge: Was she present in the home when the search was carried out?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: At home but I wasn’t allowed to see her.

Ms Hodge: What effect did this have on her?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: She then started crying and I wasn’t allowed to leave to go to her, so it just finished me completely and I just had to end the interview because I couldn’t continue any longer.

Ms Hodge: You’ve mentioned that an interview was carried out. Was that in your home?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it was. It was in my dining room.

Ms Hodge: Were you legally represented?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No, I wasn’t given the offer.

Ms Hodge: Was anything seized or taken by the investigators from your home?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Bin bags of paperwork. It was not identified on what. I think there was bank statements and business bank statements and credit card statements but it was not individualised and they left with several bin bags of paperwork.

Ms Hodge: Did you ever see that paperwork again?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Only when I had to – I went through my then legal team and demanded it came back that was about two years before I saw it back, and then I don’t know whether it was all back or what it was. It just arrived in an envelope.

Ms Hodge: What was the condition of your mental health at the time this investigation was carried out?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I was suffering post-natal depression, which I had been warned about, so I was then – I had to go and see a GP and I was then told I was not fit for interview because I just went to pieces. I just went to pieces.

Ms Hodge: You’ve described going to see your GP. What was the outcome of visiting your GP?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I was put on medication and a letter was written by him to the Post Office investigators to say that I was not fit for interview.

Ms Hodge: Did the investigation cease at that point?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: It ceased on the fact that I then didn’t have any more investigations, but Mr Price felt it necessary to come to my door regularly to find out how I was and whether we could set a date for another investigation with a solicitor, and I would regularly find him parked outside the house and I just felt generally harassed and intimidated.

Ms Hodge: Were you interviewed again?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, I was, but I had – by that time had got legal reputation, so it was at a solicitor’s.

Ms Hodge: Do you recall roughly how long it was before your first interview and your second interview?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Eight months I think, I believe.

Ms Hodge: What action did the Post Office take as a result of this alleged shortfall that was found on Horizon?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: They pursued me through the courts for false accounting and at the time they wanted theft as well but, in fact, on the day of my case the theft was dropped.

Ms Hodge: Just in terms of our timing, the audit initially took place in January of 2008; that’s right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes.

Ms Hodge: You were suspended in March of that year; is that correct?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, that’s correct.

Ms Hodge: How was your suspension communicated to you?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: They just – a letter was written by the contracts manager to say it had been terminated.

Ms Hodge: The following month – forgive me, I think you were first suspended; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, yes, suspended me. I think when they came to the house that day I was told I was suspended, then they terminated my contract.

Ms Hodge: And the termination took effect in April of 2008; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it was straight away, yes.

Ms Hodge: You were later charged with theft and false containing; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: That’s correct.

Ms Hodge: Was that in connection with the shortfall of approximately £18,500?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes.

Ms Hodge: How did you plead to the charges?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I was advised by counsel to plead guilty to false accounting because technically I had – had false accounted and they felt that no jury – because I wanted to – I wanted to plead not guilty but they felt that a jury would not believe me over the Post Office and that my best bet was to just take the false accounting and the chances are then I wouldn’t actually then have a prison sentence.

Ms Hodge: Did you or your barrister know whether there were others in a similar position to you?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Not at that time because I was told I was the only one – constantly told by the Post Office.

Ms Hodge: How did it make you feel to be advised that you should be pleading guilty to these charges?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Absolutely horrendous because I didn’t want to. I wasn’t guilty. I did nothing wrong. It just – it absorbed my life. I just – yeah, I haven’t been the same since, really.

Ms Hodge: You entered your guilty plea I think in February 2010; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it was my daughter’s birthday.

Ms Hodge: How old were your children when you were prosecuted by the Post Office?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: 19, 16, 10 and he would have been two.

Ms Hodge: What did you tell them about your trial?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I couldn’t tell them. I went to court that morning thinking I wouldn’t be coming home and that would be left to Dad, it would be left to Paul to discuss that with them if I didn’t return because I couldn’t bring myself to tell them.

Ms Hodge: You just said you didn’t think you would be returning home. Were you expecting to receive a custodial sentence?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: That’s what I was – yeah, that’s what I was advised by barristers that I would receive a custodial sentence.

Ms Hodge: How did it feel to know you might be separated from your four children?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Horrific, absolutely – I couldn’t even begin imagining what that would be like and I just went to court that day with a case packed not knowing whether I’d be coming home.

Ms Hodge: What sanction did the judge in fact impose?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I got 40 weeks suspended for 18 months I believe it was, 250 hours community service.

Ms Hodge: Where did you carry out your community service?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: At the cancer charity shop in Norwich.

Ms Hodge: And what type of work did you do for the charity?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I was behind the till. Because they felt I had retail training so I’d be best placed behind the till when the Post Office felt that I hadn’t been best placed.

Ms Hodge: You described in your statement that the Post Office brought an application under the Proceeds of Crime Act; is that correct?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, that’s correct.

Ms Hodge: Do you recall roughly when that application was made?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Shortly after my sentence, as far as I’m aware. It was all around the same time period.

Ms Hodge: And can you explain what the Post Office were seeking to recover from you?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: They wanted to recover the 18,500.

Ms Hodge: What was the outcome of that application?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: They have put a hold or had put a hold over the house, a charge over the house, because at the time we didn’t have £18,500 to pay the Post Office back.

Ms Hodge: Does the charge remain on your house today?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: It should have been removed but I have never checked since I was acquitted last year. I haven’t actually followed that up on whether the charge is still on my home and I haven’t been notified it isn’t.

Ms Hodge: Did you ultimately pay the £18,500?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No, I didn’t. It went on to a stay at court because I think everything was snowballing, as far as the Post Office was concerned, and their legal team then put it on a stay at the courts –

Ms Hodge: Your conviction –

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: – until the outcome.

Ms Hodge: Forgive me, your conviction was overturned in April last year; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: It was. Yes, it was.

Ms Hodge: I’d like to ask you now a little bit about the effect that these events have had upon you and your family.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes.

Ms Hodge: When you were accused by the Post Office of theft and fraud, what effect did that have on your mental health?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: It just spiralled, spiralled down and down. I didn’t leave the house for a couple of years. It’s at least two years. Ashamed, no-one would believe me, they constantly told me I was the only one, and eventually when that’s told to you enough you begin to believe it, so I began doubting whether it was me that had not intentionally taken anything but something I had done wrong. I called for help. I had done everything that helpline asked me to and it just got worse and worse and worse.

And that had put an impact on my mental health for several years. I’ve now – I deal with it now – I’ve dealt with it now by just tucking it away in the back of my head because that’s the only way I have been able to continue for the last 12 years, else I wouldn’t have been able to go forward.

Ms Hodge: Did you receive any treatment for the problems you were suffering?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I’m receiving treatment at this point now, yes.

Ms Hodge: But when you were first convicted, did you receive –

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: (Shook head)

Ms Hodge: Was your conviction reported in the local press?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it was, yes, the following day, which also added to my anxieties and stress because I knew – I live in a small village and everybody was talking about it, and that made it very difficult for me to then carry on my normal life going to the local shops, being seen by people I knew. I knew a lot of people running the Post Office and I was ashamed.

Ms Hodge: How did it affect your standing in the local community?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I had quite a lot of support from people but a lot of people just avoided me because that was easier then, I think, than them actually having to doubt that I may or may not have done it.

Ms Hodge: What about your friendships?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: My close friends have all stuck by me, those that I’ve allowed in, and family have stuck by me but I keep myself very much to myself now and I trust no-one.

Ms Hodge: What happened to your business after you were convicted?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: We had to sell because I couldn’t continue any longer going to work, going into that business. It just was too much strain. I couldn’t cope with it.

Ms Hodge: Were you able to recover what you had invested in it originally?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No. No. I just wanted to get out. I just needed to get out and we couldn’t run it. It couldn’t be run without me, so we decided to cut our losses and sell.

Ms Hodge: After your contract with the Post Office was terminated, were you able to obtain other employment?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I did, after a couple of years, because I didn’t feel I was fit enough to do anything and I was terrified because I knew it would come up on my disclosure and barring, anything I wanted to do. So I went to the local college and applied to be a learning support assistant there, which I got the job but not without having to have another interview with human resources to explain why that was on my disclosure and barring, and again they were very good and very supportive but it’s still something that I struggle with. I struggle to say this is why it’s on there because I still – I still feel an amount of guilt, even though I know I wasn’t guilty.

Ms Hodge: Do you still work in the role of teaching assistant?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No, I gave up that post recently because with the Post Office now still continuing it brought everything back and I just couldn’t continue my role professionally with the children while having my own problems.

Ms Hodge: You and your husband have worked as foster carers; is that right?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, it has, yes.

Ms Hodge: What effect did your conviction have upon your ability to foster young children?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: As far as our fostering agency, they were brilliant. They backed us. That wasn’t a problem. We had a lot of parents of children that we had that were then obviously having little jibes and was I fit to be a foster carer, et cetera, et cetera, but with support of the local authority and my fostering agency they stuck by us the last 12 years and now everything’s fine, but it was embarrassing. Again it was this humiliation of having to explain to people and them believing me really.

Ms Hodge: How many children have you and your husband fostered?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: To date 25. 25. And I think this has given me some strength on – on being an advocate for them and fighting for what is right because if nothing else that’s taught me that’s what you need to do, is you need to fight for what is right.

Ms Hodge: What effect did the Post Office investigation and prosecution have on your husband?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I think at work his close friends were very supportive. A lot of people just didn’t speak about it, even though it was in the local press and everybody – after my case last April and I was cleared, it was amazing how many people came out then to say, “Didn’t think she’d done it”. But no-one said that at the moment because I just don’t think people believed. So I think he found it a little bit difficult really.

Ms Hodge: Were your own children affected by your conviction?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes, they were bullied at school. Because it was in the local – I say it’s a small village community. It was made very public knowledge by local newspapers and they were at the local high school. So, yeah, their life wasn’t fun for a while.

Ms Hodge: We’ve discussed the fact that your conviction was overturned last year.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Yes.

Ms Hodge: How did it feel to discover your conviction was being quashed?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Absolute relief and – but I still – I still struggle to get excited about that. I can’t – it’s impacted on my life so much that I think I’ve learnt to live with it that at the moment I still don’t feel free of it and I don’t know whether I ever will.

Ms Hodge: How do you feel now about the way in which you were treated by Post Office?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Appalled how – I think my biggest trouble is understanding how any human being can be like that to another human being, knowing that those people are innocent. And when the investigators came into my house, I wasn’t the first person. They knew I wasn’t the first person, yet they went out and lied to me, as did the Post Office, and I can’t live with myself knowing I’d done that to someone, to another human being, and I don’t know how they can.

Ms Hodge: What would you like the Post Office to do to put right what happened to you and others in your position?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: I want to see the people that were responsible for this to be held to account, to go through what I’ve been through. Yes, they need to be held to account. Someone knew, from top to bottom people responsible for this, and they need to be held to account now on how many lives they’ve destroyed because even though I’ve been found not guilty, that’s still affected my life and it always will.

Ms Hodge: I’ve no further questions for you, Mrs Sayer. Is there anything else you would like to say to the Chair that we’ve not already covered?

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: No, I don’t think there is, thank you.

Ms Hodge: Chair, do you have any questions for Mrs Sayer?

Sir Wyn Williams: No questions, just my thanks to you, Mrs Sayer, for coming to give evidence to me.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Thank you.

Sir Wyn Williams: And being so clear and concise in your evidence. Thank you very much.

Mrs Siobhan Sayer: Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

Ms Hodge: Thank you, Chair. That concludes our evidence for this afternoon.

Sir Wyn Williams: All right. So we start again at 10.00 in the morning, Ms Hodge?

Ms Hodge: Yes, sir.

Sir Wyn Williams: All right. Goodbye everyone.

(2.48 pm)

(Adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)